Question for Psionic rules experts Re: psionic monsters

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

1) Metapsionic feats have a power point cost.
2) Metamagic feats have a spell level cost.
3) You can use a metapsionic feat on a spell-like ability, even at will, no limit.
4) You can't use a metamagic feat on a spell-like ability.

Wrong. Take a look at the Phoenix, and take a look at Quicken Spell-like Ability in the Dragon MM1 entry, and in the MM2.

5) You don't need power points to use a metapsionic feat on a spell-like ability, even at will, no limit.

Yup.

6) You can't use a metamagic feat on a spell-like ability.

Wrong. Look at the point I made for #4. There is no reason why you couldn't have a feat called Empower Spell-like Ability or Maximize Spell-like Ability. The precedent already exists. Again, look at the Phoenix for MM2.

And the Cerebrilith does qualify for Quicken Power. It doesn't have to pay any cost.

The balor can qualify for Quicken Spell-like Ability.

In practice, a blue with psion levels will be more powerful than, say, a drow with wizard levels, but

#1: It isn't a big deal.
#2: Who cares?

 

[kreynolds]

Wrong. Take a look at the Phoenix, and take a look at Quicken Spell-like Ability in the Dragon MM1 entry, and in the MM2.

Wrong. I wasn't talking about the Quicken Spell-Like Ability. I was talking about the standard metamagic feats, such as Quicken Spell. I'm interested in seeing your new reply though. This whole thing is just really wierd for me.

And the Cerebrilith does qualify for Quicken Power.

No. It doesn't. The feat requires that you spend extra power points. Nowhere in the PsiH or the errata does it state that creatures get around this restriction. If they can, there's no reason why creatures can't get around the increased spell level cost of metamagic feats, such as Quicken Spell, and neither is there any reason why creatures can't use metamagic feats, such as Quicken Spell, on their spell-like abilities.

It's a fundamental argument. It just doesn't make sense to me.

The balor can qualify for Quicken Spell-like Ability.

See first answer.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Ok, I see your gripe. Quicken Power is basically the equivalent of Quicken Spell and Quicken Spell-like Ability all at once.

This is because there is a distinction between magical spells and magical spell-like abilities, but there is virtually no distinction between psionic powers that cost power points and free psionic powers.

I don't really see how it's unbalanced; it's just one bonus feat.
If it bothers you, however, replace the Cerebrilith's Quicken Power feat with Quicken Innate Power.

It isn't official, but if it works better in your campaign, you should use it.

 

[kreynolds]

Quicken Power is basically the equivalent of Quicken Spell and Quicken Spell-like Ability all at once.

Yes! Yes! Exactly!

This is because there is a distinction between magical spells and magical spell-like abilities, but there is virtually no distinction between psionic powers that cost power points and free psionic powers.

Well, see, that's my problem. Nowhere in the PsiH or the errata can I find any information that says a creature wihtout power points can use Metapsionic feats, at will, no cost, unlimited use, all day long. Even the 3/day variant doesn't address this. So, from what I can tell, psionics as spell-like abilities should work exactly like magic spell-like abilities in regards to meta' feats.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Nowhere in the PsiH or the errata can I find any information that says a creature wihtout power points can use Metapsionic feats, at will, no cost, unlimited use, all day long.

It doesn't say they can't, either.
Anyway, check the phoenix. It can use it's spell-like abilities at will, no cost, unlimited use, all day long, with metamagic feats.

Actually, where does it say that you can't apply metamagic to spell-like abilities?

In this case, I would go with the author's intention. If there's a problem (eg the CR seems too low), you can always separate them - eg Quicken Innate Power.

 

[kreynolds]

It doesn't say they can't, either.

Cute.

Anyway, check the phoenix.

The Pheonix is a big ol' fat exception.

It can use it's spell-like abilities at will, no cost, unlimited use, all day long, with metamagic feats.

Yes, it can. But the no psionic creature contains any such description.

Actually, where does it say that you can't apply metamagic to spell-like abilities?

I'll see if I can dig it up again.

In this case, I would go with the author's intention.

If I do that, then Quicken Spell will now apply to spell-like abilities, with no limitation of usage.

 

[Stalker0]

Is it so hard to just say if they get the feats in the stat block they can use them free, and if they pick them up later then they'd have to pay a pp cost?

I mean, its part of their stat block, its what they can do. If it ain't they can add, but at a price.

Keep the cerebrith where it is, keeps the balor where it is.

 

[kreynolds]

Is it so hard to just say if they get the feats in the stat block they can use them free, and if they pick them up later then they'd have to pay a pp cost?

Yeah, but that isn't the problem. The problem is that it doesn't matter when they get the feat, because according to Skip and Bruce, they can use it freely no matter what, and this applies to all psionic creatures, not just the Cerebrilith.

What I don't mind doing, however, is altering the writeup of the Cerebrilith to resemble the abilities of the Pheonix (MMII). Either that, or I can just give it a completely different feat.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

That's a good idea, KRey. So, what will you give them: Innate Metapsionics, or Quicken Innate Power?

 

[kreynolds]

So, what will you give them: Innate Metapsionics, or Quicken Innate Power?

Quicken Innate Power, or just Quicken Spell-Like Ability, if you wanna get technical.