Question for the board - Deities and Domains

[Grogg of the North]

It's straight from the PHB, of course.

Oddly, that's the book he seems least familiar with.

That just raises so many red flags for me.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

No, Taiia doesn't exist in our setting, as such, but we gave a general approval to a range of books. Deities and Demigods was on the list, so even if it's a bad fit, it's already licensed into the game. Wikipedia lists a number of African religions, and several of them list creator/destroyer deities, so he's not out of line in that respect.

Others have addressed concerns about the player. I agree with them, don't need to repeat them.

On the nature of this specific deity, it's the monotheistic exclusivity in a proven, polytheistic world that either needs to be changed, or understood as a lie on the part of that deity and church with an alignment adjustment to match. She simply cannot exist, as is, within your world (as I understand your world). Unless your world is different than I've come to understand it, or the different countries have not only vastly different and non-interacting deities, but different spiritual cosmologies.

 

[Herobizkit]

In the interest of inclusion, it could be easy enough to add in that the Dogma of this particular Goddess forbids worship or even acknowledgement of other faiths.

... a slippery slope into a board-banned discussion topic.

 

[Celebrim]

His characters seem to be well crafted to take advantage of various class synergies, yet he's often caught by surprise when a DM uses a relatively common spell or creature to foil him. His PC in the last game was designed to never take damage from any savable spell (Evasion and Mettle, both, which give him zero damage on any spell he can save against, be it Reflex, Fortitude or Will). He was also designed to maximize his Hide ability (Bonus in the low 30s, Hide in Plain Sight and something called a Ring of Darkhidden which lets him hide in shadows even if the searcher has Darkvision). He went near ballistic when his PC got hit with Glitterdust. He argued that, since he wasn't Invisible, per se, See Invisible and even True Sight wouldn't reveal his loaction, and that Glitterdustsimply revealed Invisible targets, not hidden ones. Then we read him the line from the spell description that says targets get a -40 on their Hide checks. Instant fireworks, as if he had never read the 2nd level spell.

a) Why does he keep changing PC's? Are his characters dying off left and right or does any time this happen, he demand a different PC?

b) The above story more or less tells me he will never ever be a social role player. All social RP is based on the fundamental law of RPGs: "Thou shalt not be good at everything." You cannot be a social RPer who is unwilling to concede that they don't always win. Period. He's trying to create characters that are unstoppable and never lose, and he's (your words) "going ballistic" every time he fails to win absolutely. And then apparently he's going back to the drawing board to find a more unbeatable character. This is not a guy who is playing to play. He's not even playing to compete, which can be fun if you are dealing with a true competitor. This is a guy that is playing to win. He's never going to be happy unless he can dictate how he wins completely, absolutely, and effortlessly in every situation.

You simply cannot game with that mentality. There is no solution here. All you can do is say, "You know, I think you are better off playing Skyrim."

 

[delericho]

No, Taiia doesn't exist in our setting...

For me, that ends the conversation right there. While a character could conceivably worship a deity that doesn't exist, I don't see how one could be a Cleric of a deity that doesn't exist.

 

[Greenfield]

a) Why does he keep changing PC's? Are his characters dying off left and right or does any time this happen, he demand a different PC?

He doesn't.

We ended the previous campaign rather than continue into Epic levels. This is a new, 1st level character for a new campaign.

b) The above story more or less tells me he will never ever be a social role player. All social RP is based on the fundamental law of RPGs: "Thou shalt not be good at everything." You cannot be a social RPer who is unwilling to concede that they don't always win. Period. He's trying to create characters that are unstoppable and never lose, and he's (your words) "going ballistic" every time he fails to win absolutely. And then apparently he's going back to the drawing board to find a more unbeatable character. This is not a guy who is playing to play. He's not even playing to compete, which can be fun if you are dealing with a true competitor. This is a guy that is playing to win. He's never going to be happy unless he can dictate how he wins completely, absolutely, and effortlessly in every situation.

You simply cannot game with that mentality. There is no solution here. All you can do is say, "You know, I think you are better off playing Skyrim."

I think it's more that he has to be the exception so the DM has to either cater to him, or counter him on a constant basis. Yes, he likes to be cute about class combinations, and has a habit of "making mistakes" in terms of what the rules say about spells, abilities or classes. His last character was designed more to survive anything that to "win". He did relatively little damage in combat, and would spend a lot of each encounter out of the action while he prepped and powered up his defenses.

His character is supposed to be from the Canary Islands, off the coast of Africa. I encouraged him to look up actual African religions and see if he could find a deity that was a better fit in game. Yes, it would be a home brew from outside approved sources, but the group would give him some credit for doing his homework. I even passed him a few links.

He did it. He changed deities to a different one, one that was actually worshiped in Africa. (Did you know one of their religions actually had a god of Smallpox, and was responsible for all illness and disease? Creepy...)

He changed the deity's name and gave up on that domain combination. He's taking a Fighter dip instead.

What did he keep? The monotheistic thing, even though the real world version of that deity's worship was as part of a pantheon.

That's what tells me he's looking to be the center of attention, the focal point of conflict.

My character's approach? This one is from a strange far off land where they just don't know any better. If she wants to continue in her delusions and ignore the plain evidence all around, well, that's her problem. Over all he's seen worse delusions than that one.

When this PC, as party Cleric, starts demanding that all the PCs start praying to her deity if they want healing, there will be a problem. The player has already started leading in that direction, and the Paladin in the party will shut that drivel down hard and fast.

On the bright side, I may be the next DM, and the adventure I have planned is just dangerous enough that a PC who is busy alienating all of her companions may find herself lacking sufficient backup when the Bandini hits the blower. (The party won't abandon her, or intentionally fail to support her when she's in need, but if it's hitting from all sides and they need to make a decision who to support, our monotheistic Cleric may find herself fatally short of popularity.)

On the down side, even if the PC dies, the player will just create a new lightning rod for conflict.

 

[arjomanes]

I would always allow a player to make a character who is a heretic.

 

[Grogg of the North]

I' always amazed at how much we as gamers are willing to tolerate from other PCs when that PC is sitting across the table from us. Especially when it seems that every other PC would think "You know, I don't like that guy/girl. I'm gonna high tail it out of town before they wake up."

 

[Celebrim]

He doesn't.

We ended the previous campaign rather than continue into Epic levels. This is a new, 1st level character for a new campaign.

It seemed like we went through several weeks there where every week was a new concept from an unnamed problematic player.

I think it's more that he has to be the exception so the DM has to either cater to him, or counter him on a constant basis.

I'm not sure that there is a difference, since he seems to be largely about mechanics over concept. If he's actually moving into stealing spotlight through RP concept as opposed to mechanical perfection, that is potentially an improvement. At least there is potentially game play in that.

He did it. He changed deities to a different one, one that was actually worshiped in Africa. (Did you know one of their religions actually had a god of Smallpox, and was responsible for all illness and disease? Creepy...)

Yes, actually, and not just one. Variants show up through out much of west Africa and the New World slave diaspora.

Ok, so he's a cleric of Babalu Aye, that's fine.

What did he keep? The monotheistic thing, even though the real world version of that deity's worship was as part of a pantheon.

Wait... what? How can you transform a minor deity with a minor focus (punishing the transgressions against taboos via diseases) into a supreme deity. I mean, I can see you actually doing that with Olorun who has a lot of the characteristics associated with universal deities (triunity, no gender, creator, sky god, supremacy over other gods, etc.). I would think you'd reach a pretty quick philosophical conundrum here, starting with something like, "You say Babalu Aye is the supreme god, but by your own story he did not create the world." And if the response to that is somehow to coopt Olorun's stories and apply them to Babalu Aye, then there is a very easy response, "If that is so, then those that worship Olorun are actually worshiping Babalu Aye by a different name. So, why should it not be the case that when one worships Zeus, that they are not worshiping Babalu Aye by a different name?" (And at the metagame level, if you are going to choose a deity then change all the myths about him, why didn't you choose a different deity in the first place?)

That's actually IMO a very Greek/Roman response. The Greeks were convinced that the 12 Olympians were universal gods, and that all the peoples of the world worshiped the Olympians (or their relatives) by different names. So every time they encountered a different people, they'd try to figure out which names went where. They were so successful in this regard with the Romans that they basically converted them entirely to the Olympian rites. With in a few centuries, those Temples that didn't convert were so marginalized, people still went through the motions but no one could actually remember even what the god in question was about - including their own priests. The only people the Greeks could never figure out what to do with was the Jews...

I can definitely see a philosophical argument over whether this 'Babalu Aye' was actually Apollo, or perhaps Asclepius. And I think your PC's approach that this is just some mixed up barbarian is also quite appropriate to setting.

It's not entirely unheard of in the ancient world for a supreme deity to get the monotheistic treatment - consider Akhenaten's career as priest-king. I just find the choice of deity bizarre. One thing I'm terribly conscious of with deities is whether its believable that anyone would actually worship and serve said deity. I can believe that you might propitiate a god of small pox. I can't believe anyone would see a god of small pox as the Alpha and Omega.

As a player at the table, whether GM or player, I think I'd be going for the theological jugular here.

That's what tells me he's looking to be the center of attention, the focal point of conflict.

Meh. I'm almost ok with that. I can deal with conflict. What I can't deal with is conflict where the player has rigged the game so that he always wins and never has to worry about consequences.

When this PC, as party Cleric, starts demanding that all the PCs start praying to her deity if they want healing, there will be a problem. The player has already started leading in that direction, and the Paladin in the party will shut that drivel down hard and fast.

And that I don't get. If it really is a polytheistic society based on the Greco-Roman world, if a priest wants you to give some respect to his deity, then well, you pretty much go along with that. Almost no one from the Greco-Roman world believes in the exclusivity of worship. They see no conflict in worshiping dozens of deities. They aren't themselves monotheists. The only real problem is if the party cleric starts demanding all the PC's STOP praying to their own deities if they want healing. If he's going to get all weird and exclusive like those wierdos the Jews or something, that would represent a philosophical problem. But for everyone else, they probably don't have commandments like, "Thou shall have no other gods before me." The RPGism of everyone having a single patron deity that they worship exclusively despite a polytheistic setting is just that - an RPGism. And if your character really does have a vow like, "I can't worship any other gods but my patron.", well, then go with the RP. Sucks to be you that you don't get healed by anyone but a cleric of your patron. Maybe you ought to reconsider your unwarranted monotheism? Do you really expect clerics to hand out healing and blessings without seeing acts of piety and respect toward their deity? It might actually be a good thing to have a cleric in the party that seriously demanded piety toward their deity, at least as a show, before agreeing to bless the other PCs instead of acting in the much more typical non-priestly manner.

 

[Greenfield]

Didn't want to mislead anyone there. His character isn't worshiping the god of Smallpox, I was just commenting that there was one.

His character in the last game was a Scout 5/Hexblade 5/Shadowdancer 5/Ranger/something else. He had two feats, something about being specialized in killing mages, that both lowered his casting level by 4, so his caster level as a Hexblade was -7. He wanted Evasion and Mettle, Hide in Plain Sight and he claimed that he could penetrate and auto dispel any spell effect that increased a caster's AC, including things like Cat's Grace and Haste. He overlooked the fact that the feat only applies in melee, and he had taken the Flaw of Noncombatant (Unearthed Arcana) that gave him penalties in melee. He tried, many times, to claim it worked through his bow.

He had what he called a "Force Striker" bow that tuned out to be a magic bow with the Force modifier on it. He tried to play it so the Mighty component increased with his Strength, when he got a buff. It didn't. The special bow he claimed it was (from Magic Item Compendium) wasn't there.

He liked the bonus damage from Skirmish (Scout ability), but missed the trick to make it effective: You have to move 10 feet to get the bonus damage from Skirmish, which normally limits a character to a single attack. Good damage on a single shot, but it's an all or nothing deal, and you can potentially do more at higher levels by just taking all the attacks. You get to count your bow's damage bonus on every shot. And he missed a big thing: Mounted Archery lets you meet the movement requirements with the mount's move action, thus letting you get a full round attack with Skirmish damage on each shot.

He liked the Hide in Plain Sight, with a +30-something to his Hide, and a Ring of Darkhidden so he couldn't be spotted by Darkvision, but overlooked spells like Glitterdust that shoots that down in flames. (-40 to Hide checks).

So a lot of this looked like he was trying to trick out the character based on things he'd heard, rather than on things he actually understood. His emails are so badly spelled and with horrible grammar that I suspect he's borderline illiterate. It never surprises me to learn that he didn't read something all the way through. I'm more surprised that he read it at all.

When he Role Played, it was always for self aggrandizement. Ego stroking, "Oh, I'm too good for that to work" kind of thing. (He literally said that, on more than one occasion). His RP efforts never contributed to anything at the table, other than to the other players' blood pressure.

So I'm not exactly looking forward to the "Role Playing" he's trying to bring to the table this time.