Question on a close burst attack when marked

[NewJeffCT]

This came up a few sessions ago. The players had surrounded an elite brute enemy that had an encounter power that allowed her to attack each opponent as a Close Burst 1 attack (Human Murderer, level 10 Brute, Deadly Arc attack... I had upgraded to an Elite)

My question is - do all the attacks happen simultaneously? Five players are around her and one of the defenders had her marked with a power that allows him to interrupt an attack if the target is not him. However, with a burst attack that targets everybody at once, including the marking PC, can the PC interrupt the attacker since four of the five attacks are not the PC? I would think that since the PC is part of the burst, he cannot interrupt. However, I'm not really clear.

Thanks

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It is one attack. There's a distinction between a power which allows multiple attacks, like say Twin Strike, in which case the attack procedure (targeting etc) is run once for each attack made, and a burst/blast type power which makes one attack in which all the targets are selected and the attack procedure is run once. In the later case the fighter in question IS one of the targets of the attack, so he's not going to be able to trigger his interrupt if the wording is something like "when an enemy makes an attack that doesn't include you as a target". Other wordings might still allow it though, but they're pretty uncommon.

That being said, some people have argued that RAW AUGHT to allow this kind of thing to trigger. Though more commonly the argument is made the other way (and generally in the context of monsters).

 

[NewJeffCT]

It is one attack. There's a distinction between a power which allows multiple attacks, like say Twin Strike, in which case the attack procedure (targeting etc) is run once for each attack made, and a burst/blast type power which makes one attack in which all the targets are selected and the attack procedure is run once. In the later case the fighter in question IS one of the targets of the attack, so he's not going to be able to trigger his interrupt if the wording is something like "when an enemy makes an attack that doesn't include you as a target". Other wordings might still allow it though, but they're pretty uncommon.

That being said, some people have argued that RAW AUGHT to allow this kind of thing to trigger. Though more commonly the argument is made the other way (and generally in the context of monsters).

Thanks - I may be misremembering the actual power & occasion, as I'm pretty sure it was "enemies in burst" on the attack.

it doesn't seem logical to allow the interrupt, though. If it was a ranged burst or blast like a Fireball, it would seem odd to be able to interrupt a fireball, even if you were in the fireball.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, the ability to interrupt ranged attacks (and area attacks, which are just ranged attacks with a burst effect) is really a nod back to old D&D and a bit of realism (at least for the martial ones). The theory is with close attacks they are balanced out in that you have to be in the face of the targets, but you don't get OAed (normally). A fireball where a target of the fireball is IN the fireball is a bit of a corner case, but the theory was always the attack is taken while the spell is being cast, hence the interrupt speed of it.

Anyway, it always seemed cool to me. A minor distinction that opens up a bit of design space.

 

[marelion]

The attack is close burst 1, so if he is adjactent to the brute the defender is also a target of the attack, meaning he cannot use immediate Interrupts that are triggered if an enemy makes an attack that does not include him.

Let me draw a liitle improvised battle mat to help me explain:


xxx aaa xDS
xBx aBa XBX
xxx aaa LXX

B is obviously for Brute, while the little x symbolize the squares. The second graphic shows all squares affected by the burst attack(marked a for affected). The third graphic is just a situation I made up in my mind to illustrate my explanations. As you can see a Striker(S) and the party`s leader(L) are adjactent to the brute, flanking him to gain CA, while the defender(D) has taken position next to the Striker and marked the brute. If it were the brutes turn he would be free to use his close-burst 1 attack against all 3 party members without fear of triggering the mark`s penalties or triggering any Immediate Interrupt the defender might be able to use if not included in the attack.

Close burst attacks are considered to happen simultaneously, there is no point in time where the defender might have a second to realize he is not targeted and interfere. If the brute`s power read:

Make the folowing attack against up to three creatures within Melee 1 the brute would make up to 3 seperate attacks and trigger the Immediate Interrupt, as soon as he would make an attack that does not include the defender

The trigger of such defender powers usually reads:

Trigger:If an enemy makes an attack that does not include YOU(...)

So the trigger is not resolved, the requirement for the power to come into effect is not met and thus the brute is an invalid target for the Immediate Interrupt of your defender.

BTW:Close attacks of brutes are among the nastiest things a defender cannot keep away from his allies, since practically all defenders have to be adjactent to the target they choose to mark for their powers to be effective.

Hope, this explanation helps! If you need further clarification would you be so knd as to post the powers in question or at least where to find them, so that we can look at the exact wording(i.e the immediate interrupt of your defender and the close burst 1 attack of your brute)?

Edit: Too late, damm it. I have to become faster at typing

 

[SensoryThought]

IMO the burst attacks all happen simultaneously and an interrupt would thus happen before all attacks are launched. If this kills or disrupts the attack it doesn't go off.

That's my raw rules interpretation but I would obviously make an DM call based on the actual situation.

 

[marelion]

[MENTION=6687996]SensoryThought[/MENTION]:You`re absolutely right about the timing of the immediate interrupt and the possible consequences, but please note the OP specifically stated that the requirements to trigger the immediate interrupt were not met(the brute did include the defender in the burst attack, while the immediate interrupt only could have hapened if the defender had not been part of the close burst attack), so all of this is rather academic.

 

[Infiniti2000]

It helps to read (or re-read) the definition of Attack from the online compendium (and Rules Compendium apparently):

An attack roll and its effects, including any damage rolls. The word “attack” is sometimes used as shorthand for “attack power.” Some attack powers include multiple attacks, and some powers, such as magic missile, are designated as attacks yet lack attack rolls (using such a power counts as making an attack if the power has a target).

So, if you equate "attack" with "attack power" you'll see that it's clear that the defenders cannot interrupt the elite brute's "attack" because the power itself includes them.

 

[the Jester]

A close burst 1 attack includes multiple attack rolls, but is a single attack that targets multiple creatures.

It's very similar to an area attack. If the bad guy was using a fireball that got them all, that interrupt wouldn't be an option either.