question on a couple of effects with a fighter

[DracoSuave]

According to Page 269 of PHB damage and effects all occur at the same point in resolving the attack (Step 5 in the list).

As such, they don't all happen one by one necessarily. So the trigger is still:
"When you (push a creature or knock a creature prone), it takes damage equal to your Constitution modifier."

The bit in the brackets, added my me, is still a single trigger. If a power happens to do both simultaneously, i.e. in a single resolution (as all the damage and effects are a single event in the resolution sequence), you only get one trigger still - as A,B,A&B are still single returns of the trigger each.

If this were the case, then let's look at a typical rogue power.

Dazing Strike, level 1 Encounter power.
Hit: 1[W] + Dexmod damage, and the target is dazed until EOYNT.

If all effects were simultaneous, that would mean the target would be dazed when this power hit. That would mean if you did not have combat advantage when the attack hit, you'd have it when the damage was dealt. Which would mean you could apply sneak attack damage to this power, even if you hit someone without combat advantage.

That does not work.

Sign of Vulnerability deals radiant damage and gives the target vulnerability. Because the target would have vulnerability at the time damage is dealt, the target would take extra damage from the attack itself.

That does not work.

Also, the part you quote does not say you do damage and effects simultaneously, in fact it doesn't make sense for powers that say 'Do this, then do that, then do this'. No part of that says 'Do the effects all at the same time.'

All it says, is that resolving hits or misses is step 5. Being a part of the same step does not mean 'do it all at the same time.'

In fact, straight from PHBII:

Sequence: The order of information in a power description is a general guide to the sequence in which the power’s various effects occur.

There is a sequence (altho there are definate exceptions) and you do things in order.

Damage comes first, so you do that first. Then the push effect (which only applies once, as it is a single push effect). Then, if you pushed the target, you trigger the damage from Iron Vanguard, as you have satisfied the condition. Then you knock the target prone, if it isn't already (say from dying). Then, if you knocked the target prone, you deal damage again.

The power does not make exception, makes no mention of simultaneousness, and there's been no errata to Iron Vanguard to indicate the damage can only occur once.

 

[DracoSuave]

According to Page 269 of PHB damage and effects all occur at the same point in resolving the attack (Step 5 in the list).

As such, they don't all happen one by one necessarily. So the trigger is still:
"When you (push a creature or knock a creature prone), it takes damage equal to your Constitution modifier."

The bit in the brackets, added my me, is still a single trigger. If a power happens to do both simultaneously, i.e. in a single resolution (as all the damage and effects are a single event in the resolution sequence), you only get one trigger still - as A,B,A&B are still single returns of the trigger each.

In programming, it's not a procedural thing, but it's event-driven. So you're probably better off using an event-based object model. Visual Basic thinking will help to understand this.

ObjIronVanguard inherits the object type ObjFighter, which in turn inherits ObjPC, which in turn inherits ObjCreature.

ObjCreature has two methods: ObjCreature.PushesTarget (int squares, ObjCreature CreaturePushed) and ObjCreature.PronesTarget (Obj Creature CreaturePushed)

void ObjIronVanguard.PushesTarget (int squares, ObjCreature CreaturePushed)
{
ObjFighter.PushesTarget (squares, CreaturePushed)
ObjFighter.DealsDamage (ConMod, CreaturePushed)
}

void ObjIronVanguard.PronesTarget (ObjCreature CreatureProned)
{
ObjFighter.PronesTarget (CreatureProned)
ObjFighter.DealsDamage (ConMod, CreatureProned)
}

The trigger doesn't check after a power is resolved to determine if it has triggered, it triggers immediately upon the satisfaction of its trigger. So the damage would occur once between the push and knocking prone, and once when knocked prone.

And if the creature is rendered dying or is pushed into hazardous terrain and makes its save against it, then the creature knocks itself prone, and the prone condition fails to reapply, and the damage does not occur a second time.

 

[Nichwee]

If this were the case, then let's look at a typical rogue power.

Dazing Strike, level 1 Encounter power.
Hit: 1[W] + Dexmod damage, and the target is dazed until EOYNT.

If all effects were simultaneous, that would mean the target would be dazed when this power hit. That would mean if you did not have combat advantage when the attack hit, you'd have it when the damage was dealt. Which would mean you could apply sneak attack damage to this power, even if you hit someone without combat advantage.

That does not work.

Actually that is not true.
If the effects are simultaneous then the damage is APPLIED at the same time as dazing occurs. By this time, the option to add Sneak Damage has passed. The ability says you must have combat advantage when using a suitable weapon. Thus, once you have already hit gaining combat advantage doesn't matter as you have stopped using the weapon - you are simply resolving it's previous use (which didn't have combat advantage).

As for the event-driven/procedural issue we shall have to agree to disagree. I see it as a single check that has multiple ways to trigger it, you see it as constantly repeating checks so all ways trigger seperately (though this does allow the arguement that Push 4 = Push 1 x4 issue to arise - tho I trust no one is cheesy enough to try using that arguement in a game).

 

[DracoSuave]

Actually that is not true.
If the effects are simultaneous then the damage is APPLIED at the same time as dazing occurs. By this time, the option to add Sneak Damage has passed.

The option to use Sneak Attack is -after- all the attack rolls have been resolved and damage resolved for that particular attack, then retroactively applied.

Once per round, when you have combat advantage against an enemy and hit that enemy with an attack that uses a crossbow, a light blade, or a sling, the attack deals extra damage. If you have dealt Sneak Attack damage since the start of your turn, you cannot deal it again until the start of your next turn. You decide whether to apply the extra damage after making the damage roll. As you advance in level, your extra damage increases.

The ability says you must have combat advantage when using a suitable weapon. Thus, once you have already hit gaining combat advantage doesn't matter as you have stopped using the weapon - you are simply resolving it's previous use (which didn't have combat advantage).

Well, like I said, it's rediculous and absurd, which is why things cannot be simultaneous.

As for the event-driven/procedural issue we shall have to agree to disagree. I see it as a single check that has multiple ways to trigger it, you see it as constantly repeating checks so all ways trigger seperately (though this does allow the arguement that Push 4 = Push 1 x4 issue to arise - tho I trust no one is cheesy enough to try using that arguement in a game).

If the ability had said 'When you have used a power that has pushed or knocked an enemy prone, deal X damage' then I'd agree with you. However, that is not what the ability says.

It says 'When you push or knock an enemy prone' which means the trigger is on the event of pushing or knocking prone, not on the event of using a power that has happened to do so. It does not matter how you have done so, so long as it was your effect. Feats, features, powers, what-not... if you knocked them prone or pushed them, the ability triggers immediately.

Let's look at other powers that have the 'When you do X, do Y' notation, or the 'do Y when you do X' notation.

Astral Fire. You gain a +1 feat bonus to damage when you use a power with the radiant or fire keywords.

Same template, applies immediately upon the trigger. You do not wait for after the power is done to give that power a bonus do you?

Ferocious Rebuke. When you use the infernal wrath power and hit with an attack, you can push the target 1 square in addition to any damage you deal.

You push the target when you deal damage (as it is in addition.) You do not wait until you've resolved the rest of the power.

Speaking of Push/knock prone:

Stand your Ground

When an effect forces you to move—through a pull, a push, or a slide—you can move 1 square less than the effect specifies. This means an effect that normally pulls, pushes, or slides a target 1 square does not force you to move unless you want to.
In addition, when an attack would knock you prone, you can immediately make a saving throw to avoid falling prone.

If the fighter's power were to affect this dwarf, he doesn't go 'I have been pushed and/or knocked prone, so my feature kicks in and possible negates one. The dwarf checks at the first trigger, being pushed, and resolves his ability, reducing the push by 1. Then when knocked prone, he resolves his ability, rolling a saving throw to avoid the prone.

The dwarf doesn't wait until after all the effects are 'simultaneously resolved' to do so... these effects act immediately at each seperate trigger.

Iron Vanguard doesn't suddenly work different just because the event that gets triggered is dealing damage.

Remember, the -same- Iron Vanguard gets hit points every time he drops an enemy, not once per power... and -that- ability is worded the same way.

 

[Danceofmasks]

I find the wording on sneak attack ambiguous on the timing, actually.

Hunter's quarry, on the other hand, is ridiculous.
If you can make multiple attacks in a round ... decide ... after all attacks are rolled.
So, you could spend an AP, twin strike, move around a corner (so the original targets have total cover), twin strike, then retroactively kill your first target with quarry damage.

 

[DracoSuave]

I find the wording on sneak attack ambiguous on the timing, actually.

Hunter's quarry, on the other hand, is ridiculous.
If you can make multiple attacks in a round ... decide ... after all attacks are rolled.
So, you could spend an AP, twin strike, move around a corner (so the original targets have total cover), twin strike, then retroactively kill your first target with quarry damage.

Well, the rogue one is very simple.

'You decide after you've made the damage roll.'

Have you made the damage roll? Yes? Now you decide.

It's that simple.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Yes, sure you've rolled the damage, but have you applied it yet?
You decide when you see the values on your dice ...
'cos it could read as if sneak attack is additional damage, applied at the same time.

 

[DracoSuave]

Yes, sure you've rolled the damage, but have you applied it yet?
You decide when you see the values on your dice ...
'cos it could read as if sneak attack is additional damage, applied at the same time.

Of course not, but in a rules set where triggers are applied not when the events that trigger them occur, but after the power itself, then Sneak Attack would be after the Hit resolution, after damage is dealt.

The rules, of course, don't work that way.

 

[Danceofmasks]

But that's why I brought up Hunter's Quarry.
When you twin strike, you attack, hit, deal damage, then attack again, hit, deal damage.
Quarry allows you to decide, after both hits land, if your quarry isn't dead yet, to deal the damage to the first hit ...

Or if your quarry is dead, quarry someone else, use dragon breath on it and deal quarry damage.

What if ...
A is your quarry. You dragon breathed first, miss A and hit B.
Change quarry to B
Shoot at B twice and miss.

Can you then deal quarry damage to B? It's your quarry, you hit it this round, but it wasn't your quarry when you hit it?

Or you can just go crit fishing.
Twin strike A, and A didn't die.
AP.
Go around the corner, quarry B, shoot B and B didn't die either.
A is bloodied but B isn't, so you decide to deal quarry damage to A, roll a 7, and A drops dead ... 25 squares away in total cover.

Yeah.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Dear lord...I wish they would just errata Iron Vanguard and Draconic Arrogance to fix this issue. It's obviously an "either or" statement and only meant to be applied once, but (supposedly) ambiguous wording has spawned so many threads here and the WotC boards it's ridiculous.

Personally, I like to go with the "if there are two interpretations of something, and one is significantly overpowered compared to the other, then the latter interpretation is correct". I find getting +2xCON, +2xSTR on a single attack kind of ridiculous and overpowered personally, which is why I would tend to lean more towards the interpretation that it applies once when either condition is satisfied.