Question on a couple of feats from Compete Divine...

[cordell]

I agree with Pax. I'm new here (2nd post), but I will [humbly] try and say it in a different way.

Based upon the wording of Arcane Disciple, Bards and Sorcerers are restricted to casting a maximum of 1 domain spell per level per day. Bards and Sorcerers are classes which "cast spells without preparation". Wizards are not restricted by this - their restriction is that they can only *prepare* a maximum of 1 domain spell per level per day. Wizards dont "cast spells without preparation" -- even Wizards who have this feat. (For that matter, IF anyone who took this feat became someone who could "cast spells without preparation", then there would be no need for the writers to clarify it - the special relative clause would simply apply to everyone who had the feat.)

For this arguement, you don't need to consider the SH feat at all. You simply need to decide whether taking AD suddenly changes the character into someone who can "cast spells without preparation".

 

[RigaMortus]

I think I know what you are saying now. That, upon taking the SH feat, you are now becoming a class that does not prepare spells in advance (with regards to Cure spells only, but that alone is good enough to qualify you). And the text in the AD feat prevents you from casting more than one Cure spell, per level, per day if you are a class that does not prepare spells in advance.

Is that you're getting at?

I think you are reading too much into it. If you really want to read that far into, then we can also infer the following.

So long as you only have access to Cure Light Wounds (first level spell from the Healing Domain), you may cast it an umlimited amount of times per day. The text says that "if you cast SPELLS without preparation" you can only cast one per level, per day. If you are a level 1 Wizard and have both feats, you only cast 1 spell w/o preperation. The text only applies if you cast to spells (plural), not a spell (singular). Right?

Furthermore, you can also infer that, the Wizard is never allowed to CAST Cure Light Wounds with SD. He is only allowed to prepare them. Same goes for a Druid.

Let's not read too much into it.

 

[Scharlata]

[...] Is that you're getting at?

Yepp, they do, and I'm not following, whether argumentative nor technically.

[...] Let's not read too much into it.

Joy!

Kind regards

 

[Liquidsabre]

I think I know what you are saying now.

I'm not sure who this is directed at but I'll try to respond. No offense gents but you need to keep up with proper quoting who/what parts you are responding to as it makes the disucsssion some what difficult to take part in.

That, upon taking the SH feat, you are now becoming a class that does not prepare spells in advance (with regards to Cure spells only, but that alone is good enough to qualify you). And the text in the AD feat prevents you from casting more than one Cure spell, per level, per day if you are a class that does not prepare spells in advance.

Is that you're getting at?

Oh dear, I think I see the problem now. You're taking the "(or cast, if you cast spells without preparation)" and taking the AD domain spell casting limit only applying to the TYPE of caster. So if a preparation caster that gains the ability to spontaneously cast a spell or spells, then the AD limit no longer applies to them. Egads! *smacks forehead* No wonder you guys are having a problem with this. And you said *I* was reading too much into it!?

Well, here's the relevant quote from the feat Acrane Disciple (yes, again lol) :

"Each day you prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without preparation) a maximum of one of these domain spells of each level."

First, let's split this sentence into it's two parts, to help us better take a look at it, as I can see the part in the parenthesis' is giving you guys problems. So here's the limitation according to AD (I added the "if you prepare spells" to the first part to make it complete and mirror the second part so you can compare).

(1) Each day you prepare, if you prepare spells, a maximum of one of these domain spells of each level.
(2) Each day you cast, if you cast spells spontaneously, a maximum of one of these domain spells of each level.

Does that help? The TYPE of caster (preparation or spontaneous) makes no difference here. All that matters is HOW you cast the domain spells, as far is the limitation applies. So no matter how you go about using the domain spell (casting spontaneously or perparing it) there is still the maximum of 1 domain spell at each level per day. Though a reasonable argument may be made that a caster who can do both prepare and cast spontaneously a domain spell is instead only limited to a maximum of 1 of each domain spell casting-type (1 prep, 1 spont).

Let's not read too much into it.

I agree. But then again it is not I who is reading too much into this!

 

[Liquidsabre]

One, if you prepare spells each day, you may only prepare one spell of each spell level, per day, from the domain(s) you have gained access to.

Two, if you cast spells without preparation, you may only cast one spell of each spell level, per day, from the domain(s) you have gained access to.

Be careful with this here, you are assuming that the AD domain spell restriction is attached to the TYPE of caster, which is false. Above I split the sentence into it's equivalent parts (English degreed folk should be able to confirm this for me, I hope).

That's all well and fine - using Arcane Disciple, you may only cast/prepare one spell of each spell level from the domain selected. No problems there, right?

Absoultely! Each day you can only cast/prepare 1 domain spell of each level. That's it.

Now, enter Spontaneous Healer. As a seperate ability, you can exchange a prepared spell in order to spontaneous cure wounds spell, a number of times per day equal to your Wisdom modifier - regardless of spell level.

Yup. When you exchange a prepared spell to spontaneously cast a cure spell, you are using up that "cast 1 domain spell of each level per day" for that level of cure spell.

Well; absent an explicit statement to the contrary, we should look at the impact of allowing full interaction between these two feats in terms of game balance.

No need. It should be pretty plain as is.

 

[Pax]

No need. It should be pretty plain as is.

I note you never addressed my comment WRT the balance of such a combination.

Seriously; explain to me how a Wizard with a wisdom of 14 or 15 is going to become broken, if up to twice per day, he can convert prepared spells into "extra" cure spells?

Because, in my opinion, any competent Wizard with a Wisdom of 16+ who wants to cast cure sspells at all, won't take EITHER of the feats being discussed here ... instead, he'll pick up levelsof Cleric (three of 'em), and then go with Mystic theurge - which will give them a DARNED sight more bang-for-the-buck in terms of curative spell capacity per day. *shrug*

 

[Liquidsabre]

I note you never addressed my comment WRT the balance of such a combination.

Right, as I said, no need. The crux of the discussion at the moment is the correct reading of the RAW for the two feats. I didn't want to confuse the issue with talk of balance. But since you ask...

Seriously; explain to me how a Wizard with a wisdom of 14 or 15 is going to become broken, if up to twice per day, he can convert prepared spells into "extra" cure spells?

Never said he'd be broken, but perhaps we should take a closer look at this.

Because, in my opinion, any competent Wizard with a Wisdom of 16+ who wants to cast cure spells at all, won't take EITHER of the feats being discussed here ... instead, he'll pick up levels of Cleric (three of 'em), and then go with Mystic theurge - which will give them a DARNED sight more bang-for-the-buck in terms of curative spell capacity per day. *shrug*

But let's look at a comparison build, since none was provided.

Human (Int 18, Wis 16)
Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 5
Relevant Feats: (2 of 5) Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric), Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard)
Spells: An 8th level Wizard and Cleric (Highest spell level: 4th) with a caster level of 9th for both spellcasting.
Cure Spells: (5+1/4+1/4+1/2+1) Cure Light Wounds, Cure Moderate Wounds, Cure Serious Wounds, Cure Critical Wounds.

Human (Int 18, Wis 16)
Wizard 11
Relevant Feats: (2 of 6) Arcane Disciple, Spontaneous Healing
Spells: A 11th level Wizard (Highest spell level: 6th).
Cure Spells: (prepared or cast) Cure Light Wounds 1/day, Cure Moderate Wounds 1/day, Cure Serious Wounds 1/day, Cure Critical Wounds 1/day, Mass Cure Light Wounds 1/day, Heal 1/day (A total of which 3 cure spells may be cast spontaneously each day).

Looks great to me (and balanced). Access to Heal 1/day (though it needs to be prepared) is nothing to scoff at, let alone having access to 6th level arcane spells. Sure, if I want to be a better healer (and a worse arcane caster) I should just take levels in Cleric, but isn’t that as it should be?

Let’s look at the interpretation as others would have it:

Human (Int 18, Wis 16)
Wizard 11
Relevant Feats: (2 of 6) Arcane Disciple, Spontaneous Healing
Spells: A 11th level Wizard (Highest spell level: 6th).
Cure Spells: (prepared) Cure Light Wounds 1/day, Cure Moderate Wounds 1/day, Cure Serious Wounds 1/day, Cure Critical Wounds 1/day, Mass Cure Light Wounds 1/day, Heal 1/day (A total of which 3 cure spells may be cast spontaneously each day).

Looks almost the same except that instead of being able to cast Cure Critical Wounds only 1/day you can now cast CCW 3/day spontaneously and prepare it 1/day. That’s a considerably greater curative domain spell power than Arcane Disciple would care to place in the hands of an arcane caster. In fact, if you make a direct comparison to the Mystic Theurge above:

Wizard 11: May use Cure Critical Wounds 4/day (3 cast, 1 prep)
MT 5: May use Cure Critical Wounds 3/day (assuming healing domain has been selected).

So by comparison, if the AD and SH feats are used this way, there really isn’t a reason to take levels in Cleric the MT-route as you have abundant (greater than the MT actually at higher spell levels) curative spells at your finger-tips. So, balance-wise, there’s another reason that this interpretation is not likely the correct one.

 

[RigaMortus]

I think I am even more confused now, heh...

Bottom line... With both of these feats you can do the BOTH of the following (at any point in the day):

(a) prepare/cast 1 Cure spell (per level, per day) from the Healing Domain

AND (as in, ADDITION TO)

(b) spontaneously cast any Cure spell that is on your class list. The stipulation being that the total numer of Cure spells cast, IN THIS WAY, does not exceed your Wisdom modifier.

(Hopefully I was a little more clearer.)

This is my understanding of how it works. Yay or Nay?

I say YAY!

 

[Liquidsabre]

Yea, to sum up (after figuring out where you gents are coming from):

(1) AD adds the domain spells to your arcane class list

(2) SH allows you to spontaneously cast cure spells from your class list Wis mod/day.

With that said, the limitation of a maximum of 1 prepared/cast domain spell at each level per day still stands. Nothing has removed this restriction to the casting of these domain-spells that are accessed through the Arcane Disciple feat.

Which is what I've been saying all along.

 

[RigaMortus]

Yea, to sum up (after figuring out where you gents are coming from):

(1) AD adds the domain spells to your arcane class list

(2) SH allows you to spontaneously cast cure spells from your class list Wis mod/day.

With that said, the limitation of a maximum of 1 prepared/cast domain spell at each level per day still stands. Nothing has removed this restriction to the casting of these domain-spells that are accessed through the Arcane Disciple feat.

Which is what I've been saying all along.

I think we are on the same page. I was agreeing with you to begin with. Like you, I was trying to figure out what the opposition was saying, and why they thought you were some how limited in casting the spells.