D&D 5E Question on Alert

[The Crimson Binome]

In your example, the distant assassin rolled lower than the Alert PC. The assassin has a good hiding place (and a good Stealth roll) but while the Alert guy is not surprised (in game terms) he failed to spot the assassin (Perception roll was lower than the assassin's Stealth).

That's an important point, which I failed to realize, but there's still a significant sub-set of situations where it wouldn't apply - if the assassin doesn't have anything to hide behind, and is merely relying upon the fact that the target is looking in a different direction or not paying attention, then the PC whose spidey-sense goes off will turn around and the assassin won't be hidden (since the ability to sneak up on someone without cover doesn't work on an alert target in combat). So the PC turns around, sees that sniper automatically because they don't actually have cover, and casts a Disintegrate spell on them before they ever did anything to draw any sort of attention to themself.

Although I guess that's fine, too, as long as you describe the Alert character as constantly on the lookout for danger and never turning their back to a crowd. But if that's the case, then the enemy should be able to see that the character is Alert, and take further precautions accordingly.

 

[Arial Black]

That's an important point, which I failed to realize, but there's still a significant sub-set of situations where it wouldn't apply - if the assassin doesn't have anything to hide behind, and is merely relying upon the fact that the target is looking in a different direction or not paying attention, then the PC whose spidey-sense goes off will turn around and the assassin won't be hidden (since the ability to sneak up on someone without cover doesn't work on an alert target in combat). So the PC turns around, sees that sniper automatically because they don't actually have cover, and casts a Disintegrate spell on them before they ever did anything to draw any sort of attention to themself.

Although I guess that's fine, too, as long as you describe the Alert character as constantly on the lookout for danger and never turning their back to a crowd. But if that's the case, then the enemy should be able to see that the character is Alert, and take further precautions accordingly.

That's not caused by immunity to surprise. That's caused by the creature that starts combat (by going for his gun/sword/spell) rolling lower initiative.

It's like the showdown between two gunslingers: one guy waits for the other to draw first, but as soon as that guy goes for his gun (initiates combat) our hero is faster on the draw.

Also, the unhidden assassin won't be rolling opposed Stealth/Perception checks to be unseen, because he knows full well that he can be seen!

He'll be rolling opposed Deception/Insight checks, trying to disguise his malevolent intent while hoping no-one interprets his body language correctly.

 

[CapnZapp]

Would you rule that certain circumstances bypass the Alert feat? specifically, a person in the equivalent of a Silence Spell walking up behind the person with Alert?

Or, do you think this is overstepping a bit, since one of the main benefits of the feat is "Never get surprised"?

Why not instead question the wisdom of including something as absolute as never get surprised?

I would much rather fix this by having the feat make it hard but still not impossible to surprise its taker.

 

[jaelis]

The Alert guy can move into cover, cast a self buff, take the Dodge action, anything he could normally do using the knowledge he has.

He has knowledge that it's about to hit the fan, but (unless he succeeded on his Perception) he has no knowledge what the specific danger is, where the enemy is, that there is an assassin, anything like that.

So how would you play it when the would-be-assassin decides not to actually attack, seeing how the target took cover? Supposing that the assassin is the player, and the target is an NPC with the feat or item, so you can't just DM fiat the whole thing.

 

[Arial Black]

So how would you play it when the would-be-assassin decides not to actually attack, seeing how the target took cover? Supposing that the assassin is the player, and the target is an NPC with the feat or item, so you can't just DM fiat the whole thing.

How would real people react?

If you were the Alert guy, would you just stay in cover forever? Buff yourself and move forward when you're ready? Take another route, if there is one? Start scrying? Send allies to circle round? Just go home, because you've got a bad feeling?

What if you were the assassin? Would you curse your luck and attack anyway? Wait until he comes out of cover? Move to a position where his position no longer gives him cover? Just try to wait forever until the target moves first? Give it up as a bad job and go home?

It depends what the assassin is there for. When setting an ambush there is always the possibility that they might spot you. You should have a plan to cope with that.

For the Alert guy, he's got things to do, places to be. He must have expected the possibility of being attacked on the road, it's unlikely that he'll just go home again just because he got a bad feeling.

In game terms, the Alert guy moves to cover and casts shield of faith. The assassin silently curses the gods and uses Stealth to move around to get line of sight; he knows that his opportunity to use the Assassinate special ability has gone.

Simply run the combat, asking what each does on their turn, just like in every other combat.

If the assassin takes his bat & ball home every time he can't get an auto-crit, he's not going to get paid! If he finds that he isn't being successful using ambush then he's going to have to think of a different approach.

 

[jaelis]

So it sounds to me like, in your game, Alert basically does give the character a supernatural warning when someone is planning to attack them? Which is certainly a legitimate way to read it. But if I were playing an assassin in such a game, I would try to neutralize it by hiring a bunch of people to plan on attacking the target as often as possible, without carrying through. Eventually I'd expect the target to stop paying attention.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

So how would you play it when the would-be-assassin decides not to actually attack, seeing how the target took cover? Supposing that the assassin is the player, and the target is an NPC with the feat or item, so you can't just DM fiat the whole thing.

If the assassin hadn't actually made an attack or any other hostile move, what was it that initiated combat?

 

[jaelis]

If the assassin hadn't actually made an attack or any other hostile move, what was it that initiated combat?

"I prepare to launch an attack"?

I don't think there is any rule that you are required to actually attack on the first round of combat. I suppose you could play that there is. But then if the target wins initiative and finds total cover, what would you do? I guess require the player to attack the cover? That seems a bit arbitrary to me as a player.

You know, I suppose another way to interpret the way I want to play it is that you go ahead and roll initiative as usual. If the target wins, they win. But you don't tell the target "someone is about to attack you." Rolling initiative is a metagame thing, there's no reason a character should be aware of it. So if it's a player just tell them to roll a d20. If they win, don't tell them anything. Presumably they spend their first round doing whatever it is they had been doing, and then get attacked (but without surprise). That has the same effect as how I'd play it, but avoids peoples' allergy to fixing initiative results.

Of course that would work best if you periodically ask the players to roll d20s for no reason, but that is anyway fun to do

 

[The Crimson Binome]

It's like the showdown between two gunslingers: one guy waits for the other to draw first, but as soon as that guy goes for his gun (initiates combat) our hero is faster on the draw.

It's like the twitchy guy who's always on the alert for assassins, and then an assassin attacks him anyway (even though he's obviously paying attention) and gets blown away while he's drawing his gun.

If you know he's watching you, and try to gun him down anyway, then it's fair that he draws faster and shoots you first. But if you know he's watching you, then you're probably not going to make the attempt while that remains the case; you're going to wait until he's distracted or asleep or something. (The fact that this character can't be surprised, even when distracted or asleep, may not be obvious to an observer.)

If I was running this scenario, I'm fairly confident that a player saying they're actively on the lookout for assassins would probably prevent those assassins from striking at all (unless they were invisible or something).

Also, the unhidden assassin won't be rolling opposed Stealth/Perception checks to be unseen, because he knows full well that he can be seen!

He'll be rolling opposed Deception/Insight checks, trying to disguise his malevolent intent while hoping no-one interprets his body language correctly.

That seems like a table thing, but I'd probably still use Stealth/Perception to hide in a crowd. On the alternative, which is also perfectly valid, would you just say that one of the effects of Alert is that you always correctly interpret the body language of potential assassins? You always know whether someone is reaching for a gun or a pen?

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I don't think there is any rule that you are required to actually attack on the first round of combat. I suppose you could play that there is. But then if the target wins initiative and finds total cover, what would you do? I guess require the player to attack the cover? That seems a bit arbitrary to me as a player.

No, but there is a highly problematic rule that you are required to be in combat before you can attack someone.

Whether you're considered to be in combat or not carries with it a long list of assumptions about what's going in the world and who is paying attention to what, but being in combat is also just triggered by anyone thinking about making an attack within the next few seconds, whether or not any of those other assumptions currently apply. If you're about to make an attack, then everyone is automatically alerted that combat is going on before you can do what you're planning to do, even though you haven't actually done anything to alert anyone yet.