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D&D 5E Question on using Favored Foe more than once per turn

ECMO3

Hero
Description
"When you hit a creature with an attack roll, you can call on your mystical bond with nature to mark the target as your favored enemy for 1 minute or until you lose your concentration (as if you were concentrating on a spell).

The first time on each of your turns that you hit the favored enemy and deal damage to it, including when you mark it, you increase that damage by 1d4."


Rules state you can drop concentration any time. So the question is can I drop concentration to activate FF again on the same turn.

For example hit with the first attack, activate favored foe for extra damage. Drop concentration. Hit with second attack activate favored foe again for extra damage, drop concentration, attack with TWF, activate FF and do damage a third time in the turn. You have used three uses of your favored foe and done 3d4/3d6 extra damage.

Would you allow this if I only attacked 1 enemy? Would allow it if I attacked different enemies with all 3 attacks?
 
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Redwizard007

Explorer
Description
"When you hit a creature with an attack roll, you can call on your mystical bond with nature to mark the target as your favored enemy for 1 minute or until you lose your concentration (as if you were concentrating on a spell).

The first time on each of your turns that you hit the favored enemy and deal damage to it, including when you mark it, you increase that damage by 1d4."


Rules state you can drop concentration any time. So the question is can I drop concentration to activate FF again on the same turn.

For example hit with the first attack, activate favored foe for extra damage. Drop concentration. Hit with second attack activate favored foe again for extra damage, drop concentration, attack with TWF, activate FF and do damage a third time in the turn. You have used three uses of your favored foe and done 3d4/3d6 extra damage.

Would you allow this? Would you allow it if you attacked different enemies with all 3 attacks?

I'd rule yes, if you wanted to use a new incidence of Favored Foe for each enemy. it would be under powered as all hell and it would suck to burn through all your uses for they day in one round, but as long as there was a cost. Eh, I guess.

As a single use of Favored Foe? Hell to the no.
 

toucanbuzz

Legend
Yeah, but it's not that awesome because it's only usable # of times = proficiency bonus per long rest.

In the above scenario, assuming this character is 5th level with Extra Attack, since you can end Concentration freely at any time, you could do it that way. However, you've just sucked up your day's worth of special class ability for a chance at a measly +3d4 damage, because you still have to land the hits.

By contrast, a 3rd level Light cleric can activate a 2d10+3 area blast on every hostile creature (save for half), renewable every short rest. I could keep going with a horde of other classes that can do a lot more combat damage with a lot less.
 

ECMO3

Hero
I'd rule yes, if you wanted to use a new incidence of Favored Foe for each enemy. it would be under powered as all hell and it would suck to burn through all your uses for they day in one round, but as long as there was a cost. Eh, I guess.

As a single use of Favored Foe? Hell to the no.
Yeah that is what I meant, a separate use every time.

FF rarely gets memore than 1 dice damage anyway, either beause I take damage or because I throw a spell and don't attack or becuase I throw up a spell with concentration. I always seem to have uses left when I long rest. I think using it as a smite instead of a concentration feature will actually result in more damage over an adventuring day.

Also if I multiclass my Ranger to Assassin it will give me a bunch more dice to go Nova on the first turn if I have surprise before settling in with a concentration control spell on turn 2.
 
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aco175

Legend
I would not allow you to drop concentration after you attack each turn, only to activate it once your turn comes back around. It seems like you only want to have it without concentration in the first place.

You could have some sort of ability that adds power to the Favored Foe ability. Not sure of an advanced FF at level 7 or 11 that lets you target more than one enemy or such.
 

ECMO3

Hero
Yeah, but it's not that awesome because it's only usable # of times = proficiency bonus per long rest.

In the above scenario, assuming this character is 5th level with Extra Attack, since you can end Concentration freely at any time, you could do it that way. However, you've just sucked up your day's worth of special class ability for a chance at a measly +3d4 damage, because you still have to land the hits.

By contrast, a 3rd level Light cleric can activate a 2d10+3 area blast on every hostile creature (save for half), renewable every short rest. I could keep going with a horde of other classes that can do a lot more combat damage with a lot less.
The character I want to use it on is currently 14th level (12 Ranger-Fey Wanderer, 2 Rogue), she has a bunch of other concentration spells she uses. She almost never runs out of favored foe right now and for the most part hasn't since tier 2 started. The reason is not because I don't have times I want more damage, it is because she is usually concentrating on something else. When she is not she activates favored foe, but it rarely lasts very long and it is rare I get more than one turn out of it anyway. If I can squeze it in there more than once on a turn when I am not concentrating and am attacking, that would use them up at least.

I get that they are not a lot of damage at this level, but they are something and better to use them than not use them. Her DPR without TWF but with extra attack runs about 24 right now if both hit with the sneak attack and dreadful strike each landing once. FF twice would add 7 which is a bump.
 
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ECMO3

Hero
I would not allow you to drop concentration after you attack each turn, only to activate it once your turn comes back around. It seems like you only want to have it without concentration in the first place.

You could have some sort of ability that adds power to the Favored Foe ability. Not sure of an advanced FF at level 7 or 11 that lets you target more than one enemy or such.
To be clear I want to activate it more than once per turn. I want to drop concentration between attacks, not between turns. If it is still on at the end of my turn I would logically keep it up until the next turn and if I attacked the same enemy the next turn get the damage from it.

You can do this with spells because the concentration automatically drops when you cast the next spell. So if you cast one concentration spell as a bonus and then another concentration cantrip as an action the concentration on the first will end when you start casting the second. Favored foe is a bit messy for two reasons, first it does not require an action of any kind and it uses the concentration mechanic but is not a spell.
 
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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I'd rule yes, if you wanted to use a new incidence of Favored Foe for each enemy. it would be under powered as all hell and it would suck to burn through all your uses for they day in one round, but as long as there was a cost. Eh, I guess.

As a single use of Favored Foe? Hell to the no.
To be fair, the most powerful reading of favored foe possible still only beats hunters mark if you’re dual wielding and fighting fairly low-HP enemies.
 

ECMO3

Hero
To be fair, the most powerful reading of favored foe possible still only beats hunters mark if you’re dual wielding and fighting fairly low-HP enemies.
That is not a fair comparison because it does not use a spell slot or a spell known. It is free, where Hunters Mark is expensive to cast and VERY expensive to have as a known spell.

Using FF 5 times a day at my current level is more 1st level slots than I have total even if I did have HM. Also you do not have to use a bonus action to activate it, RAW you can even activate it on an OA.

I don't think FF is great, but I do think it is in general better than favored enemy, which is really what it should be compared to. Not a whole lot better and not strictly better, but probably marginally better for most builds and most campaigns.
 
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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/They)
Description
"When you hit a creature with an attack roll, you can call on your mystical bond with nature to mark the target as your favored enemy for 1 minute or until you lose your concentration (as if you were concentrating on a spell).

The first time on each of your turns that you hit the favored enemy and deal damage to it, including when you mark it, you increase that damage by 1d4."


Rules state you can drop concentration any time. So the question is can I drop concentration to activate FF again on the same turn.
You can drop concentration and re-apply Favored Foe, but if you hit the enemy a second time, it would by definition not be the first time you hit the enemy and dealt damage to it on your turn, so you would not be able to do damage with Favored Foe.
Would allow it if I attacked different enemies with all 3 attacks?
As long as each of those attacks was the first time you had dealt damage to each of those respective enemies on your turn, sure.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
That is not a fair comparison because it does not use a spell slot or a spell known. It is free, where Hunters Mark is expensive to cast and VERY expensive to have as a known spell.
Not really. It requires your concentration, and can only be used once per turn. HM cost a spell slot and a bonus action. Your known spells are low, sure, but not that low with Tasha's. And the payoff for HM is much higher.
Using FF 5 times a day at my current level is more 1st level slots than I have total even if I did have HM. Also you do not have to use a bonus action to activate it, RAW you can even activate it on an OA.
I've run the numbers. You can check them by finding the last thread about exploiting FF by stacking uses of it during the same instance. HM still beats it unless it's a long fight against enemies that go down quickly, and even then, FF only catches up, it doesn't surpass HM.
I don't think FF is great, but I do think it is in general better than favored enemy, which is really what it should be compared to. Not a whole lot better and not strictly better, but probably marginally better for most builds and most campaigns.
It's more narrowly focused, but only generally better if your campaign doesn't challenge you outside of combat. You assumption that most campaigns are like yours is simply false.

What you're proposing isn't possible RAW, but it won't break anything. You'll just burn through your FF uses very quickly.
 

ECMO3

Hero
Not really. It requires your concentration, and can only be used once per turn. HM cost a spell slot and a bonus action. Your known spells are low, sure, but not that low with Tasha's. And the payoff for HM is much higher.

I've run the numbers. You can check them by finding the last thread about exploiting FF by stacking uses of it during the same instance. HM still beats it unless it's a long fight against enemies that go down quickly, and even then, FF only catches up, it doesn't surpass HM.

It's more narrowly focused, but only generally better if your campaign doesn't challenge you outside of combat. You assumption that most campaigns are like yours is simply false.

What you're proposing isn't possible RAW, but it won't break anything. You'll just burn through your FF uses very quickly.
Copy all.

You are right that HM is a better use of concentration certainly, although not necessarily better than other low-level spells and worse than other high level spells.

You do get a lot of spells known if you take Primal Awareness instead of Primeval awareness, and more with some subclasses. But you can't really choose any of them or trade them for other spells. The problem with HM is the Ranger has a ton of awesome spells that you really want (goodberry, pass without trace, spike growth, Absorb Elements ....) and you don't get these through subclass or PA. HM is not bad, especially with a martial focused Ranger that is not using his bonus and concentration for something else. The problem with it is the opportunity cost for getting it. I think if I really wanted that mechanic I would strongly consider playing a Human and starting with Fey Touched for HM (or for Hex since it is a better spell).

The regular Favored enemy is better if you are in a campaign focused on a particular type of enemy and you are going to be frequently doing wisdom checks against that enemy, but I have seen entire published WOTC campaigns and adventures run beginning to end where it was not used a single time, and many were complaining about it as a feature before Tashas was published (although to be fair many complain about FF too).

What is not RAW about it specifically, assuming I attack a different enemy every time?
 
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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Copy all.

You are right that HM is a better use of concentration certainly, although not necessarily better than other low-level spells and worse than other high level spells.

You do get a lot of spells known if you take Primal Awareness instead of Primeval awareness, and more with some subclasses. But you can't really choose any of them or trade them for other spells. The problem with HM is the Ranger has a ton of awesome spells that you really want (goodberry, pass without trace, spike growth, Absorb Elements ....) and you don't get these through subclass or PA. HM is not bad, especially with a martial focused Ranger that is not using his bonus and concentration for something else. The problem with it is the opportunity cost for getting it. I think if I really wanted that mechanic I would strongly consider playing a Human and starting with Fey Touched for HM (or for Hex since it is a better spell).

The regular Favored enemy is better if you are in a campaign focused on a particular type of enemy and you are going to be frequently doing wisdom checks against that enemy, but I have seen entire published WOTC campaigns and adventures run beginning to end where it was not used a single time, and many were complaining about it as a feature before Tashas was published (although to be fair many complain about FF too).

What is not RAW about it specifically, assuming I attack a different enemy every time?
FF specifies that you can add to the damage the first time on your turn that you deal damage. That only happens once per turn.
 

Redwizard007

Explorer
FF specifies that you can add to the damage the first time on your turn that you deal damage. That only happens once per turn.

I believe it is "The first time on each of your turns that you hit the favored enemy and deal damage to it..." If you target a different enemy each time, intentionally dropping FF and targeting a different foe it works by RAW. Breaks RAI all to hell, but it works.
 

ECMO3

Hero
FF specifies that you can add to the damage the first time on your turn that you deal damage. That only happens once per turn.
No, it says the "first time on each of your turns that you hit the favored enemy". If I am changing the favored enemy every attack then I should be ok RAW.

I agree if you attack just one creature multiple times you could interpret the RAW to mean you can not do it.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
No, it says the "first time on each of your turns that you hit the favored enemy". If I am changing the favored enemy every attack then I should be ok RAW.

I agree if you attack just one creature multiple times you could interpret the RAW to mean you can not do it.
So it does, fair enough.

Im not sure why you want to do this, though. Is front loading multitarget damage that much a strong strategy in your game?

Like do you fight hordes a lot?
 

Sure, go for it if you are attacking 3 different enemies that are clustered together in fireball formation and you aren't particularly worried about Opportunity Attacks, if applicable.

Quite the situational, suboptimal, and silly exploit, IMO.
Although, it's the "silly" part I'm actually cool with, if "losing focus" or "fickle" is something that is in your character's TIBFs. Inspiration!
 

ECMO3

Hero
So it does, fair enough.

Im not sure why you want to do this, though. Is front loading multitarget damage that much a strong strategy in your game?

Like do you fight hordes a lot?
I use concentration spells a lot and almost always finish the day with favored foe uses left. On that rare turn that I am both attacking and not concentrating on something else it would be good to be able to burn through them.

Although having to attack multiple enemies does make it situational.
 
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ECMO3

Hero
Sure, go for it if you are attacking 3 different enemies that are clustered together in fireball formation and you aren't particularly worried about Opportunity Attacks, if applicable.

Quite the situational, suboptimal, and silly exploit, IMO.
Although, it's the "silly" part I'm actually cool with, if "losing focus" or "fickle" is something that is in your character's TIBFs. Inspiration!
"Suboptimal" is relative. Nothing is more suboptimal than going to bed with favored foe uses left.

My Ranger is a multiclass Rogue and on top of that I know Misty Step and Nature's Veil so opportunity attacks are rare (although if I did TWF I would probably have to take one). TWF was for this discussion, usually I only attack with a magic dagger in one hand and an empty offhand.
 

"Suboptimal" is relative. Nothing is more suboptimal than going to bed with favored foe uses left.
True true.

My Ranger is a multiclass Rogue and on top of that I know Misty Step and Nature's Veil so opportunity attacks are rare (although if I did TWF I would probably have to take one). TWF was for this discussion, usually I only attack with a magic dagger in one hand and an empty offhand.
Ah, your table rules allow offhand attack to be an unarmed strike. This comes up every ten sessions or so and I always pause and consider but ultimately squash it since RAW demands two light weapons (without the feat)… and allowing it kinda steps on the monk’s toes.
 

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