Question RE: Psionics

[Pax]

Pax: I think you're on the right track. There are fewer PPs granted because it DOES increase versatility greatly. Being able to spend freely does need to be compensated for.

Compare the Wizard and the Sorcerer. Sorcerer gets spells 1 level later than the Wizard, and gets to know less spells in total in exchange for the versatility of cast-at-will. If you take psionic powers as being the next step in versatility you can see why they have one more level of penalties, if you will, to compensate for the increased utility that they can make of what they have.

But, psionicists are NOT that much more versatile than Sorcerors. And they get *significantly* less per-day power usage than a sorceror, excepting only (as observed above) 0 and 1st level spells. sorcerors can undercast, too, after all.

The sorceror not ONLY gets cast-at-will, it ALSO gets 50% to 100% more spells-per-day for each spell level. All for ONE level later to get each spell level above 1st, increased casting time when using metamagics (which self-balances with the higher versatility of metamagics, in that they TOO are chosen on-the-fly), and, much more limited spells known.

The Psion takes the same hit to when a level of power is accessible, AND, has to pick a type of Psionics that they will specialise in ... decreeing that they will have powers of that specific type, period end of sentence.

... and it is justified to give them ~30% LESS (on average) spells/powers per day (base, before attribute modifiers) than an equivalent-level wizard gets? By not only the base level of PP, but by COMPOUNDING that with decreased bonusses for a high attribute?

That's the rub, you see. Either approach I could've taken, but BOTH? I'm sorry, the entire point of unifying the spell-bonus table was to BALANCE spellcastersof different classes; that's why they ALL get teh same bonus for their governing attribute. A Charisma of 20 is as useful to a Sorceror or BArd, as a Wisdomof 20is to a Cleric, Druid, Paladin, or Ranger, or a 20 Intelligence is to a Wizard, or any of the plethora of specialist Wizards.

Let's take some snapshots. 5th, 10th, and 15th level. Spell levels 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9, per day, before attribute bonusses:

Wizard 5: ... 3 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
... equivalent PP cost: 3 6 5 0 0 0 0 0 0
... total PP equivalent = 14
Psion 5 gets: 10PP ... -4

Wizard 10: ... 4 4 3 3 2 0 0 0 0 0
... equivalent PP cost: 4 12 15 21 18 0 0 0 0
... total PP equivalent = 70
Psion 10 gets: 43PP ... -27

Wizard 15: ... 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 0
... equivalent PP cost: 4 12 20 28 36 33 26 15 0
... total PP equivalent = 174
Psion 15 gets: 100PP ... -74


Now let's look at the same snapshots, for say, a 26 primary atribute (only difficult / unreachable at the 5th level mark, in truth; HEadband of Intellect +6 is 36,000, in reach for the 10th level PC; and a base 20 is easily achieved at 8th level, even for humans):

Wizard 5: ... 2 2 2 0 0 0 0 0 0
... equivalent PP cost: 2 6 10 0 0 0 0 0 0
... total PP equivalent = 18
Psion 5 gets: 3 5 7
... total PP = 15 ... -3

Wizard 10: ... 2 2 2 2 1 0 0 0 0 0
... equivalent PP cost: 2 6 10 14 9 0 0 0 0
... total PP equivalent = 41
Psion 10 gets: 3 5 7 9 9
... total PP = 33 ... -8

Wizard 15: ... 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 0
... equivalent PP cost: 2 6 10 14 9 11 13 15 0
... total PP equivalent = 80
Psion 15 gets: 3 5 7 9 9 11 13 --
... total PP = 57 ... -23

Now, taken TOGETHER, the totals would be:

Wizard 5: ... 5 4 3 0 0 0 0 0 0
... equivalent PP cost: 5 12 15 0 0 0 0 0 0
... total PP equivalent = 32
Psion 5 gets: 25PP ... -7 (nearly 20% less!)

Wizard 10: ... 6 6 5 5 3 0 0 0 0 0
... equivalent PP cost: 6 18 25 35 27 0 0 0 0
... total PP equivalent = 111
Psion 10 gets: 76PP ... -35 (nearly 35% less!)

Wizard 15: ... 6 6 6 6 5 4 3 2 0
... equivalent PP cost: 6 18 30 42 45 44 39 30 0
... total PP equivalent = 254
Psion 15 gets: 157PP ... -103 (almost 40% less!!)

Not that the above numbers do NOT account for the specialist's bonus spells, despite the fact that all Psions are, in essence, specialists, with a primary discipline from which one of their powers MUST be chosen, at each power level.

It's not the slight decrease in sheer total oomf that burns me, it's the double-dipping thatc oncerns me. The attribute bonusses should have remained comparable / identical; at present, there is only a compounding factor.

Then factor in, that the PP system is only MARGINALLY more flexible than the Sorceror's cast-on-the-fly ability, yet, instead of getting reduced powers per day compared to the -Sorceror- ... the Psion got less even than the -Wizard-!

I can easily point-monkey a spelclaster or psion to have a 32 base attribute at 20th level (34 for spellcasters in the Forgotten Realms, with Spellcasting Prodigy taken at 1st level -- for purposes of actually casting SPELLS anyway).

A 20th level Wizard with an effective INT of 32 gets
(7 7 7 6 6 6 6 5 5) spells per day, of levels 1 through 9; this totals (7 21 35 42 54 66 78 75 85), or, 463PP worth of spellcasting.

A 20th level Psion with an effective attribute of 32 gets 183 + (5 7 9 9 11 13 15 15 17 19), or, 303PP worth of manifesting. Roughly 2/3 as many as the wizard.

Now, a 20th level SORCEROR, with an effective CHARISMA of 32, gets (9 9 9 8 8 8 8 7 7) spells per day, of levels 1 through 9; this totals (9 27 45 40 56 72 88 91 105), or, 503PP worth of spellcasting -- nearly DOUBLE that of the Wizard!

Now ask yourself this: PP or cast-on-the-fly, is the Psion really that much more versatile than the sorceror? Remember, the sorceror can "overcast" a spell, using higher-level slots to power lower-level spells. The ONLY advantage not listed above is, Psions can affect their higest level powers with matapsionics, even 9th level ones, without being of Epic level.

Big deal, with their miniscule pool of PP, doing that will exhaust them even faster.

NOW ... compounding it yet again ... most of their powers aren't level-scalar, IOW, unlike a wizard's spells, a Psion's 3d-level power won't ever get better in terms of raw damage/effect potential. PLUS, Psion Powers tend, overll, to be less-powerful than equivalent-level spells for sorcerors and wizards. The Psion parallel to Fireball (the classic Sor/Wiz spell for comparisons) would be Whitefire (Metcre, 3d level; 5d4 fire damage, 20-foot radius spread). Granted, you can exclude targets, a feature lacking (heh) in Fireball.

But the damage starts at 5d4 ... and never changes. 6th level Psion or 20th level Psion, it's still 5d4. A wizard starts with 5d6 (already mildly superior), and can climb to 10d6 (far superior). Some houserule feats, IIRC, allow raising the damage-cielings on spells like fireball (in 2-dice increments IIRC), but only for spells whose damage is scalar to level -- so those wouldn't help the Psion any, now, would they? Een a Maximised Whitefire does only 20 fire damage; the -averge- damage from an unmetamagiced 10d6 fireball marginally exceeds that (at 21.5), lord help you if it's maximised to 60, thus doing triple damage.

I know of no (beyond perhaps house rules) MetaPsionic equivalent to the Elemental Substitution metamagicks, either ... so ... that's yet another drawback to being a Psion, instead of a wizard or sorceror.

All in all I have to agree; Psions got the shaft, then, they got it again, and THEN ... they got it a THIRD time!

I'm gonna have to invoke Double Jeopardy rules IMC, and retool the Psion to have a PP pool of more useful and (more importantly) properly balanced proportions.

 

[spunky_mutters]

I have to disagree with your base assumption that you can compare the classes by breaking it all down into a composite points cost.

Wizards get less spells to cast than Sorcerer, because they get spells earlier, and have a greater selection of spells. Getting stuck with spells can be a big problem for sorcerers. That and having metamagic take a full round reduces their utility in comparision to the wizard as the levels rise. At 20th, the advantage of getting spells earlier is nil, but the wizards have their metagmagic advantage, and sorcerers have cast-at-will.

As far as psions:

- Overcasting reduces the effectiveness of the Sorcerer. They are spending spell slots just to cast a spell. Psions don't have to do that.

- I agree that the point of having one table for spell bonuses was to get everybody on the same page, but if you've got a point buy system, it can't possible compare to the tiered spell bonus system on a 1-1 basis. There will always be an advantage to being able to spend your high-level points to cast lower level power multiple times.

There are a lot of other things that need to be considered as well, but my daughter just woke up from her nap.

As I said earlier, I'd be interested to see what you come up with, and hear how it goes in play. I wasn't saying don't try it, just that I would err on the side of caution.

 

[Pax]

I have to disagree with your base assumption that you can compare the classes by breaking it all down into a composite points cost.

Well, since spells/powers per day is being USED as a balance measure, we need to be able to compare how many Psion Powers a given spells-per-day list is worth.

Wizards get less spells to cast than Sorcerer, because they get spells earlier, and have a greater selection of spells. Getting stuck with spells can be a big problem for sorcerers. That and having metamagic take a full round reduces their utility in comparision to the wizard as the levels rise. At 20th, the advantage of getting spells earlier is nil, but the wizards have their metagmagic advantage, and sorcerers have cast-at-will.

And wizards retain their huge strategic flexibility in terms of the fact they could, if they wanted to, have literally every spell in creation, in a spellbook, for them to memorise. Also the Sorcerors lose much of their larger-spells-per-day benefit. 6:4 is not the samelevel of benefit as 3:2 or 2:1 ... the latter two being fairly common in the low to mid levels.

As far as psions:

- Overcasting reduces the effectiveness of the Sorcerer. They are spending spell slots just to cast a spell. Psions don't have to do that.

I disagree; some spells retain their viability for quite a while; Grease is very useful outside of creature combat (need to move a block of stone? cast Grease on it's underside and push!).

- I agree that the point of having one table for spell bonuses was to get everybody on the same page, but if you've got a point buy system, it can't possible compare to the tiered spell bonus system on a 1-1 basis. There will always be an advantage to being able to spend your high-level points to cast lower level power multiple times.

Um. Since Psions gain their powers based on a tiered progression, and since their costs are a tiered progression (1 3 5 etc etc), I disagree. What my comparison measured was the LEVEL of reduced per-day usefulness; that's always valid, and DOES require a 1:1 comparison.

There are a lot of other things that need to be considered as well, but my daughter just woke up from her nap.

As I said earlier, I'd be interested to see what you come up with, and hear how it goes in play. I wasn't saying don't try it, just that I would err on the side of caution.

Simple solution: bring Table 1-2 back in line with the spell-bonusses provided in the PHB. The Base PP is a hit that can be taken in and of itself, but I won't -compound- it with a hit to bonus from attributes TOO.

As it stands, teh Psionis NOT significantly more flexible than the sorceror, yet, gets to use his or her powers a net of barely over HALF as often as the sorceror, and STILL less often than the wizard!

I still dislike the non-scalar nature of most (all?) Powers, but that's a seperate issue.

 

[Staffan]

I still dislike the non-scalar nature of most (all?) Powers, but that's a seperate issue.

In all fairness, non-scaling powers are kind of needed for psions due to the power point system - if you had one power that cost 5 PP and did 1d6/level damage and one that cost 7 PP and did 1d6/level damage, there is a problem with the system. The solution is the "power pumping" rule from If Thoughts Could Kill (I think it was taken from the web somewhere): you can spend up to five extra PP (no higher than your level in total) on a damaging power, each of which will increase the damage by 1. This means that psions will still be limited in the amount of damage they can do, but at least they don't have to take up precious power slots with damaging powers just to keep up with the Joneses.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I think psions should get *slightly* fewer equivalent power points than sorcerers. You can still use useful low-level powers all day more efficiently (eg Displacement, or anything that lasts a short time) or you can use Mass Cocoon or Mass Domination all day. Ow!

The ability to manifest powers in a Silence field is always cool. And a Silent Dispel Magic is a 4th-level spell. A Silent Greater Dispelling is a 7th-level spell. Both are full-round actions for a sorcerer.

Scaling is good. Free scaling is bad. I don't want to see someone do 5d6 points of damage per round, for free, even more if using metapsionics, just by having the Trigger Power feat. (Metapsionics does not hurt your ability to Trigger Power.)

The number of powers known is very poor, and Multiple Ability Dependency (MAD) makes things that much worse.

I'll reiterate my point. You don't have to use ITCK, but if you use psions straight from the PsiH your character will be underpowered.

 

[Pax]

In all fairness, non-scaling powers are kind of needed for psions due to the power point system - if you had one power that cost 5 PP and did 1d6/level damage and one that cost 7 PP and did 1d6/level damage, there is a problem with the system. The solution is the "power pumping" rule from If Thoughts Could Kill (I think it was taken from the web somewhere): you can spend up to five extra PP (no higher than your level in total) on a damaging power, each of which will increase the damage by 1. This means that psions will still be limited in the amount of damage they can do, but at least they don't have to take up precious power slots with damaging powers just to keep up with the Joneses.

Why?

In that case, by the same justification -- Wizards shouldn't have level-scalar effects. After all, for a 5th level wizard or a 10th level wizard, it's the SAME 3d-level-slot cost to cast fireball ... yet hte 5th level wizard gets 5d6 fireballs, adn the 10th level wizard gts 10d6 fireballs.

 

[spunky_mutters]

I think what it comes down to is that a Psion can beat on his most effective power until he's drained, whereas a Wiz/Sor is limited by the level differentiations (substitutions noted, but you're still looking at a Psion being able to manifest a 9th level power way more than a Sor/Wiz can cast a 9th level spell).

This doesn't necessarily make up for the other deficiencies, I was just pointing out that it has to be taken into consideration.

I would always play Psionics are Different, and in that situation, your 20th level Psion pumping out a Maximized Detonation for 102 points of damage can do (at 23 PP) 13 of these. If he's hasted he's doing 2 per round. If you play PaD, he's very effective against people with SR but not PR, and he probably has a lot of powers that your typical baddies lack immunities to.

All that said, I wouldn't play a Psion. I do think their power are underwhelming. I haven't read If Thoughts Could Kill, but I would like to.

I would appreciate it if you could let us know how whatever you come up with works in play, because I'm fiddling around with Psionics rules right now, and I wouldn't mind feedback from those who have done some tinkering. Players always blindside you with things you hadn't thought of, so it's best to be prepared.

 

[Staffan]

In that case, by the same justification -- Wizards shouldn't have level-scalar effects. After all, for a 5th level wizard or a 10th level wizard, it's the SAME 3d-level-slot cost to cast fireball ... yet hte 5th level wizard gets 5d6 fireballs, adn the 10th level wizard gts 10d6 fireballs.

The difference is that a wizard can't exchange a Cone of Cold for two Fireballs. A psion can (yes, I know that a 5th level power doesn't cost exactly twice what a 3rd level power does, but it's the principle of the thing).

 

[Garmorn]

The flexiblity of Psions v.s. Arcane caster is even more pronounced when appling Metamagic/psionic feats. Example 8th level casters/manifester. All with an 20 in their primary casting ability. The sorcer can not extend a third level spell. The wizard and cleric can have two extend and still cast one 4th level spell. The druid can extend one 3rd level spell and still caste one. The Psion on the other hand can extend two 3rd level powers and can still use three 4th level powers. While over all the psion would be using few power over all when compared to a spell caster total spells, they maybe of a higher level.

Flex ability is the psions primary strenght.

 

[Pax]

The flexiblity of Psions v.s. Arcane caster is even more pronounced when appling Metamagic/psionic feats. Example 8th level casters/manifester. All with an 20 in their primary casting ability. The sorcer can not extend a third level spell. The wizard and cleric can have two extend and still cast one 4th level spell. The druid can extend one 3rd level spell and still caste one. The Psion on the other hand can extend two 3rd level powers and can still use three 4th level powers. While over all the psion would be using few power over all when compared to a spell caster total spells, they maybe of a higher level.

Flex ability is the psions primary strenght.

Incorrect on a key point, WRT the sorceror. You see, actually, an 8th level Sorceror absolutely can Extend a third level spell. Extend increases spell level by one; 8th level Sorcerors have just gained access to 4th level spells; with a 20 in his or her Charisma, the Sorceror can in fact cast four fourth-level spells (base of 3/day, plus 1/day form Charisma of 20-21) per day. Or, to compare directly to your Wizard and Cleric example, The Sorceror can extend the same two 3d level spells, just as they can ... and still cast two fourth-level spells, twice as many as they would have left!

And yes, granted, the 8th level Psion with a 20 in their governing attribute will have 45 power points, and can manifest an Extended 3d-level power for 7 PP (5 base, +2PP for Extend); yes, that means he could do so six times.

But those six times would be nearly all he could do for the whole day -- he'd have 3 PP left, plus his few free uses of his 0-level powers.

IMO, that's not enough of a boost to warrant being double-dipped when it comes to power points. A 20 attribute shoudl be JUST as valuable to a Psion, as to a Sorceror, or a Druid, or anyone else.