Question regarding Grab and Constrict

[RithTheAwakener]

Many creatures have the abillity to start a free grapple as part of their attack (Grab). A good portion of those have the constrict abillity that does additional damage on a successful grapple check.

Many of these types of creatures are low level, like the Darkmantle and the Assassin Vine. Does the Constrict damage affect the players on the first free grapple check made with the Grab abillity?

It seems like this would instantly kill most first level, and incapacitate some second level characters on the surprise round.

 

[ruemere]

Constrict damage is done during each successful grapple check, so it is possible to damage immediately after establishing hold.

In other words: 1. Establish grapple [via attack which already uses some action] [apply constrict damage]. 2. Maintain [nearest and each next standard action] and do some action (possibly damage) [additionally, apply constrict damage].

References: grapple, grab, constrict.

So the darkmantle would slam, then grab, and then do constrict damage.

Whether it would kill a PC is debatable for the following reasons:
- low CMB (at best 50% against a reasonable Fighter)
- 2d4 + 8 damage (PFRPG allows for negatives up to Constitution score): it would take at least two rounds to kill most 1st level characters, while Barbarians would be unlikely to go unconscious - A creature gains maximum hit points if its first Hit Die roll is for a character class level.
- low CMD - against 14 most characters would have around 50% to break free.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[RithTheAwakener]

I had inteded the "kill" in my first post to function as unconscious, but yes, just confirming that they are indeed deadly due to the constriction rules. Thank you for the information!

 

[frankthedm]

I had intended the "kill" in my first post to function as unconscious, but yes, just confirming that they are indeed deadly due to the constriction rules. Thank you for the information!

What is really great is that grappling penalties are much less severe in pathfinder, so remember rogues no longer get to sneak attack a grappling target, a huge change from 3E. Here are handy PDFs since pathfinder grapple has some changes from the last edition.

http://tuskmountain.wdfiles.com/local--files/grapple-flowcharts/Grapple Flowchart.pdf

http://tuskmountain.wdfiles.com/loc...charts/Grapple Flowchart Controllers Turn.pdf

Grappled
A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.

A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.

Grab (Ex)
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).

Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.

Format: grab; Location: individual attacks.

Constrict (Ex)
A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage). The amount of damage is given in the creature's entry and is typically equal to the amount of damage caused by the creature's melee attack.

Format: constrict (1d8+6); Location: Special Attacks.

 

[lumin]

I'm interested in this topic as well and I'm still a bit confused. So correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I follow it according to the PFSRD:

(Consider that all rolls are succesfull)

On first turn:
1. Darkmantle Attacks target (d20 + 6 vs Target AC)
2. Darkmantle Slams target (1d4 + 4 damage)
3. Darkmantle Grapples target (d20 + 8 vs Target CMD) [Grab]
4. Darkmantle Constricts target (1d4 + 4 damage) [Grab]

Does that look correct?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.

Similar to my disgust that dwarven stability is still a +4...
Why does Grab give a +4 bonus, when Improved Grapple and the other feats were reduced to +2? Oversight, or intentional?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm interested in this topic as well and I'm still a bit confused. So correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I follow it according to the PFSRD:

(Consider that all rolls are succesfull)

On first turn:
1. Darkmantle Attacks target (d20 + 6 vs Target AC)
2. Darkmantle Slams target (1d4 + 4 damage)
3. Darkmantle Grapples target (d20 + 8 vs Target CMD) [Grab]
4. Darkmantle Constricts target (1d4 + 4 damage) [Grab]

Does that look correct?

That looks correct. And scary.

 

[frankthedm]

I had inteded the "kill" in my first post to function as unconscious, but yes, just confirming that they are indeed deadly due to the constriction rules. Thank you for the information!

One houserule I used for 3.5 was that damage dealt out from "constrict" was 50% Nonlethal / Subdual. This way a victim passed out before they were killed and made healing constricts damage pileup much easier. I also ruled a constricting crittter automatically suffered armor spike damage [with its own str bonus replacing the victims].

I'm interested in this topic as well and I'm still a bit confused. So correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I follow it according to the PFSRD:

(Consider that all rolls are succesfull)

On first turn:
1. Darkmantle Attacks target (d20 + 6 vs Target AC)
2. Darkmantle Slams target (1d4 + 4 damage)
3. Darkmantle Grapples target (d20 + 8 vs Target CMD) [Grab]
4. Darkmantle Constricts target (1d4 + 4 damage) [Grab]

Does that look correct?

Why Yes. You've won some darkmantle counters... [ink & paper sold separately]



http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/31/darkmantle.png
img294.imageshack.us/img294/31/darkmantle.png

Why does Grab give a +4 bonus, when Improved Grapple and the other feats were reduced to +2? Oversight, or intentional?

Intentional. Players being able to shut down medium size BBEGs was a problem Pathfinder corrected. Just look at the changes done to grappling in general. OTOH Grab is a an offensive monster ability that is often supposed to comprise the majority of the critter's threat, rather than a feat which is only a small part of a character's arsenal*. The +4 makes sure the critter has a decent chance at getting a hold of it's prey.

Do note that even if a critter manages to use the -20, it sounds like it still hase to use up its standard action to maintain the grapple every round.

*Improved grapple also gives +2 to the victim's defense against being grappled.

 

[James Jacobs]

Similar to my disgust that dwarven stability is still a +4...
Why does Grab give a +4 bonus, when Improved Grapple and the other feats were reduced to +2? Oversight, or intentional?

Intentional. if we just let grab give a +2 bonus, it'd be easier to just give Improved Grapple as a bonus feat.

Grab gives a +4 because it's more powerful than a mere feat. And because monsters who grab should be pretty good at it; getting in melee combat with a grabby monster should never be the safest option.

 

[ruemere]

Grabbing monster is an easy target (usually).

Never split the party . Or have ready Dimension Door/Escape Artist.

Regards,
Ruemere