Questionable morals - PC's killing children

IIRC, the character who killed the hobgoblin children was an elven barbarian, and barbarians are not typically known for their kind treatment of any race. He saw the offspring of the enemy as another potential danger, so he eliminated the potential danger. A dead creature is one that cannot possibly retaliate at a future time. If a person lived in a world such as this, he would do anything possible to prevent the occurrence of raids by monsters, even if that involved killing the young of the monsters.
Also, hobgoblin children are not cute little children. They would act differently and look differently than human children. Think of human's treatment of primates as an example. If a character can't associate with the creature he is killing, he will feel less inclined that he committed an evil deed. This excuse has been used by humanity for thousands of years.
 

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I thought about this a little and it appears that the problem goes deeper than just "should the elf kill the baby hobgoblins?" It actually deals with the entire model of adventuring parties killing all of their foes in any tribal situation.

Assuming all of the providers and caretakers are killed, the adventurers have several options when confronted with helpless hobgoblin (or other) children:
1. Kill them.
2. Leave them alone.
3. Take over from the parents and raise them.
4. Enslave them.

Option 1 is wrong when applied to what SHARK referred to as "moral free agents", good creatures, or any creature whose guilt is not inherent in their nature (this will vary from world to world--in my campaign, orcs fall under the "moral free agent" heading. In SHARK's they don't appear to). If applied to a part of a larger tribe or nation, it could also result in a reputation for the characters as baby-killers and the undying emnity of the children's relatives. Since hobgoblins are lawful evil, the village was probably only a part of a larger tribe or nation so the elf could have hobgoblin bounty hunters on his trail soon.

Other than that, though, option 1 is uncomplicated.

2. Leaving the young alone will probably amount to killing them slowly and cruelly. On the other hand, subSaharan Africa is full of child-headed families and Colin Turnbull described a society where barely weaned children survived without assistance in _The Mountain People_ so some of them might survive if there were older children among them. However, the children would almost certainly remember who killed their parents and left them to fend for themselves. If this didn't amount to killing the children, it would ensure a recurrence of the hobgoblin raids problem in 10 to 15 years. That's certainly not a very good outcome.

3. This is an attractive option for many concepts of "good." It is, however, demanding of time and resources--the characters would probably have to stop adventuring to care for the children. Furthermore, it is unlikely that children from a culture that loves or is attached to their parents would accept their parents' killers as authority figures.

In some cultures, this might be a viable solution if the party were willing to step into the role of an orc or hobgoblin chief ("Your chief was weak so I killed him, now I am your leader--I will teach you how to hunt and how to defend yourselves. Your gods were also weak--they could not defend your tribe from us. We will teach you to sacrifice to gods with Real Power.") Of course, the elvish adventurers might not want to do this or know enough of hobgoblin culture to make it work. It's probably more of an option for a half orc or human.

If hobgoblins are known to be moral free agents, there might be orphanages where they could send the hobgoblin children. However, this is certainly not the case in most fantasy worlds.

In any event, option 3 is only likely to be viable if the defeated culture has a culture which expects leadership of the tribe to be siezed by violence.

4. Selling the hobgoblin children into slavery would almost certainly be profitable although most people would consider it evil.

Historically, this dilemma is the reason that most conquerors did not slaughter their enemies to the last man. If the adventurers had left a few hobgoblin warriors alive, forced them to swear fealty to a king, forbidden them to carry weapons, and forced them to pay an annual tribute like most historical conquerors did, there wouldn't have been any question about what to do with the children.

When dealing with humans, the usual response of historical conquerors has been a combination of 1 and 4 (although I believe that 3 has sometimes been applied between tribes with similar cultures).

The ancient Israelites practiced option 1 when they invaded Canaan (although not after that except in one instance). They were quite thorough about killing everyone. My understanding is that the Hopi Indians also killed every member of one of their villages that converted to Christianity. I think that some medieval conquerors also killed every person within a city which did not surrender but was captured by storm. This was rather unusual though--after all enslaving or subjegating the people was much more profitable. I expect that this option almost never happened unless it was considered to be required to wipe out an impurity (the Israelites and the Hopi) or as a threat to induce others to surrender in the future rather than resisting until the end.

The Assyrians and Babylonians and most conquerors employed a mixture of 1 and 4 when they completely destroyed a city or a people. Those who were too young or old to be good slaves, they killed and the rest they enslaved and divided up as spoils of war.

I can't think of any other practical options and I don't know of any examples of other possibilities from history.

So, if the hobgoblin children aren't moral free agents then option 1 is just fine. If they are moral free agents, then the characters have put themselves into a situation where they have few if any Good options.

BTW: I think ConcreteBhudda's explanation that there are no weak, whimpering hobgoblins (the weak, whimperers were sacrificed immidiately or left to die on a mountainside) is very good if all of the hobgoblin men and women fought to the death rather than attempting to surrender and become leader of the weakened tribe (under the rulership of the party) or fleeing with the young.
 


Re: the killing of the druid

This one does strike me as an evil act. In an army, an individual might be executed for desertion but the group in question is not an army but rather a group of adventurers who freely associate with each other in return for a share of the booty. While killing someone for not assisting (much) in combat is probably quite common among pirates and villains it is not the action of a chaotic (respecting individuals' freedoms) or good character. The character's exclusion from the treasure or expulsion from the group is a much more appropriate way of removing the freeloading coward from the party and is much more in keeping with the typical loose structure of an adventuring group. (Now they might kill him if he followed them around anyway and started looting the bodies of the party's fallen enemies. . . .)
 

Eternalknight said:
Is it evil?
For the record, I say yes, but I don't want to get into that debate...
Eternalknight said:
I am considering sending a long a celestial to keep watch on this character (my campaign involves the planes a bit). What would you do?
As has been said by many others, D&D alignment is descriptive, not prescriptive. You shouldn't visit divine wrath on characters who act against their alignment, except when a character violates alignment restrictions pertaining to his or her class. The correct action is simply to tell the player that he or she should note the new alignment on their character's sheet.

But even before that, you should discuss this with the player concerned and explain to him what your expectations are for a CN player, and try to get his view on the matter as well.
 

Re: IMHO:

ConcreteBuddha said:

With this being said, there are no "whimpering, huddling, crying hobgoblin children."

You are taking this out of context. Remember; I was asking about my campaign; in mine, there were and are whimpering, huddling, crying hobgoblin children.
 

nick said:
IIRC, the character who killed the hobgoblin children was an elven barbarian, and barbarians are not typically known for their kind treatment of any race....

The rest of your argument can be ignored, as it was an elf fighter ;)
 


Re: Similarly...

zyzzyr said:
I had a "prisoner" scenario in a gaming session as well (as DM). The group (CN half-orc Bbn, NG dwarf fighter, NG elf druid, NG elf wizard, N halfling rogue) had cleared out the mine, except for one area. Two pitiful, wretched, half-starved and half-dead kobolds were hiding in a corner, scared out of their minds by the skeletons. They immediately surrendered to the PCs, and promised to reveal everything they knew. The group tied up the kobolds, and dragged them around the mine (of course the kobolds were freaking out). The group interrogated the kobolds about any possible secret passages, and got information about a secret elevator. It was trapped, but the kobolds didn't know this.

The rogue searches it and finds a trap. The barbarian gets mad that the kobolds didn't tell them about the trap (bbn has int 9, not exactly stupid), as does the dwarf. They start roughing up the kobolds (who are still tied up, starving, and half-dead). The kobolds shriek "We didn't know! We tell everything!" And the barbarian lops the first kobold's head off. They start roughing up the next kobold, who is crying, whimpering, huddled on the floor. The dwarf CdGs it.

Now, the way they handled that, to me, was an evil act. There's no way the kobolds would know of the trap - it's not like they run the place. Even though the bbn acted in character by getting angry, killing them *because they didn't know* was over the line, as far as i was concerned. The second kobold was huddled on the floor, almost licking their boots, and they still execute it? *Especially* a NG character?

The two elves were horrified. (Considering it was their first time playing D&D, I could completely understand).

We all ended up in an argument, them trying to convince me that what they did was good because they killed off evil monsters, me trying to convince them that torture and summary execution while pleading for mercy is not a good act.

I'm still split on the issue, though, meaning I'd like validation of my opinion ;) What do you people think of their act?

O_O!!!!!! That's sick! Ugh! I don't think I'm going to eat breakfast today...
 

1) I think the killing of the hobgoblin children was evil. As hobgoblins are "usually" evil, and not "always", their ways can be changed. In modern day society that's hard (what's really good, for example?), but in a D&D environment that might be easy; take the children to a church dedicated to Heironeus or Pelor and leave the hobgoblins there to be raised as holy warriors for Good. Their warrior instincts would be fulfilled, and it would be a great symbolic victory for good; Evil kills it's opponents, good converts them. With the use of different spells, conversion shouldnt be that much of a problem.
And, as Nietzche pointed out (sorry if it's not the exact wording): He who fights monsters must be careful not to become a monster himself. I think that especially people of fighting forces and other violence users must take that in consideration all the time.

2) If we are talking about absolute morals here, the mere act of killing a Good individual is Evil, as if not killing in itself requires pretty good incitaments before it's viable. I.e: talk to the druid first, and if he doesnt comply and the others in the party agree, throw him out. But to just attack and kill, that's defenitly murder one or homocide or whatever the English term is.
 

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