Questions about Scorching Burst!

[Revinor]

Hmm....yeah I definitely think that if you can fly you can end your turn 20' feet over somones head. If that were not the case then even I would admit that D&D is becoming more a miniatures game then a roleplaying game.

I'll make a bookmark at this thread and we will come back to the topic on 6th of June

 

[keterys]

The D&D Game Table is not programmed to support a third axis... that does not reflect on the actual D&D game. You can put a little '7' marker next to the person flying just as much as you can on your kitchen table.

They just opted not to add functionality to have you literally float over it.

Also 3Wx3Lx2H is a hemisphere, obviously enough

 

[Revinor]

The D&D Game Table is not programmed to support a third axis... that does not reflect on the actual D&D game. You can put a little '7' marker next to the person flying just as much as you can on your kitchen table.

They just opted not to add functionality to have you literally float over it.

Question is not about the flying, it is about ending your movement over somebody. Markers won't help, you will just not fit on the square, neither in Game Table nor on kitchen table.

Obviously, you can wave your hands, put miniature outside of board and say that everybody should remember it is floating over that bad orc shaman. We also have a case where somebody will move under the flying mini - which miniature should then go out of the table? What about few flying minis at the same square? Who is on the top ? Can you AoO somebody who is 2 layers below you and he moves away ?

I would be MAJORLY surprised if D&D will have a rules for aerial combat. It is a lot easier to just say, "you cannot end your movement on square occupied by miniature" - all problems solved. Fly movement is still very useful and game fun wins over 'unneeded realism'.

 

[Incenjucar]

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I'm pretty sure you'll be able to occupy the same position on the Z-axis, they just won't have the rules geared towards it as much as we might like.

They won't make it MORE difficult than previous editions, they just aren't likely to make it easier, either.

Sad thing is, it shouldn't be that hard to do. All you'd have to do is have 2D boards stacked on top of each other with the understanding that a "Square" is also a "Cube."

 

[keterys]

I would be willing to bet real money that flying creatures can cheerfully hover over people beneath them (or that you can walk underneath a hovering creature)

There are probably ways to move around where you 'fly' so briefly that you have to land at the end of it (or just jump really far)... I actually prefer that way most of the time, but eh.

 

[TerraDave]

I should note that in scalegloom hall, we had multiple encounters with ledges, stairs, walls, yes some ladders, so the ability to blast targets at different heights was highly relevant. And as the wizard, I didn't think of it...and wish I had!

 

[keterys]

I played a wizard for that... but I always wanted to hit someone either high or low, never both at the same time. Ah well.

 

[DM_Blake]

Do you think that 3x3x2 is something called 'vertical column' ?

The game designers could use different terms for different areas. We could have columns, discs, planes, lines, rays, bolts, spreads, bursts, balls, tauruses, cones, rhomboids, cubes, etc. We could have dozens, maybe hundreds of areas to learn and memorize.

And all of them would match Webster's dictionary definitions of shapes.

Or...

We could simply have a very small number of words to use that descibe simplifed areas. Then we define the measurements of the individual spells and apply one of these small number of shapes to the spell, which sometimes creates a 3x3x2 column when it should have properly been called a disc, but at least we don't have to remember a hundred different game mechanics.

I think the D&D folks took the simpler option.

And yes, given the limited and simplified list of shapes applied to burst spells, I do in fact call 3x3x2 a column. It's a very short column, though 3x3x1 would be shorter still.

The best part is that it uses the exact same mechanic for placing it on a 3-dimensional battle grid as a 3x3x50 column - I don't need separate mechanics for columns and discs.

 

[DM_Blake]

So you think that if you have 'fly' movement will allow you to end your turn over somebody's else miniature? I seriously doubt it.

but to allow you to end the movement on top of somebody is probably too much.

Why shouldn't a flyer end his turn over someone else's miniature?

If a person is running at 6 squares, twice per round, in a straight line for 5 rounds, we don't assume he runs 12, then stops and stands still til his next turn, then runs 12 and stops again, over and over. He just keeps running.

But, we have to put his figure somewhere, so after he runs his two moves of 6 and ends his turn, his figure stands in that spot until his next turn.

Same with flying.

That flying monster has to end a turn somewhere. You know, and I know, that it did not stop and hover, but we have game turns and its turn is over, so we put the figure somewhere on the battle mat and the figure sits there until the flyer's next turn to move.

Why can't that spot be directly over another figure? A halfling only occupies one square vertically. A human occupies two vertical squares. A giant might be 3 or even 4. What if that flying monster is 10 squares off the ground? or 100?

Just because the game surface is a 2 dimensional battle mat on a table, and your griffon miniature doesn't hover on its own, doesn't mean the griffon cannot end its turn 10 squares directly over someone else standing on the battlemat.

This does not mean the griffon is "on top of" the other figure. They're not grappling. There is no contact.

It is merely above the other figure. Directly above.

Ladders? Are we playing D&D or Snakes&Ladders? Either ladder will be short (and then it doesn't matter) or if we are talking about surface-to-Underdark epic ladders, it probably makes more sense to cast the spells perpendicular to wall (so map instead of representing north/west/south/east will represent up/left-of-ladder/down/right-of-ladder and you get burst 1 on such map).

How short is short?

A 30' siege ladder with orcs climing up it to get into Helm's Deep is tall enough that the orcs at the bottom will be cooked by the burst, but the orcs at the top will be safe.

And in this case, it will definitely matter whether the mage put the spell on the ground (3 x 3 x 2) or 5' off the ground (3 x 3 x 3) or even if he put the spell at the top of the ladder to cook the top orcs so they fall on the bottom ones.

it probably makes more sense to cast the spells perpendicular to wall (so map instead of representing north/west/south/east will represent up/left-of-ladder/down/right-of-ladder and you get burst 1 on such map).

Yes, that would work, but I'm not tacking my battle mat onto a wall and pinning my minis to it.

But you don't need to turn the facing of the spell. It is 3 x 3 x 3 regardless of whether it gets cast near the ground or near a wall or ladder. And if it is cast adjacent to a surface (ground, wall, whatever), then part of the area of effect is blocked by that surface which causes the spell to have a reduced area (3 x 3 x 2).

 

[DM_Blake]

Question is not about the flying, it is about ending your movement over somebody. Markers won't help, you will just not fit on the square, neither in Game Table nor on kitchen table.

Obviously, you can wave your hands, put miniature outside of board and say that everybody should remember it is floating over that bad orc shaman. We also have a case where somebody will move under the flying mini - which miniature should then go out of the table? What about few flying minis at the same square? Who is on the top ? Can you AoO somebody who is 2 layers below you and he moves away ?

I would be MAJORLY surprised if D&D will have a rules for aerial combat. It is a lot easier to just say, "you cannot end your movement on square occupied by miniature" - all problems solved. Fly movement is still very useful and game fun wins over 'unneeded realism'.

Even if all this is true, and D&D handwaves vertical stacking with an arbitrary "it won't fit on the battle mat so you can't do it" ruling, there is still the question of vertical spell areas affecting flying creatures.

So, your bad orc shaman is on his own infinitely tall square on the battle mat. 5' directly behind him his pet vulture, flying 15' off the ground. They don't occupy the same square of the battlemat.

Can the wizard kill both the orc and the vulture with one casting of his Scorching Burst?

Or, the orc shaman is waiting on the ground while his orc girlfriend is climbing a rope up the side wall of the castle. She is on her rope 15' above the ground, and in the square directly in front of the orc shaman - he's looking up her skirt. Again they're not on the same square, so the arbitrary no stacking rule doesn't figure into this scenario.

Can the wizard kill both the orc and his girlfriend with one casting of his Scorching Burst?

And to answer one of your questions, yes you can Opportunity Attack somoene two layers below you who moves away, assuming his movement provokes an OA and you have a reach weapon, unless 4e is killing the OA with reach weapons, which I think I have heard it will, in which case you need that special (monster-only?) ability to make your reach attacks aggressive (is that the word they used for it?). So, if you are a wyvern, flying two squares above a yummy griffon, and it flies away, you could probaly sting it with that long tail of yours.