Questions about sneak attacks

[meltinbradley]

This didnt affect me but I was wondering your opinions or facts on these situations.
We were fighting a Titan our last game and one of the pcs has the hide in plain sight ability. I think that allows you to hide in plain sight as long as shadows are near you. The PC casted darkness to gain concealment.
The titan had true seeing on so he sees through the darkness.
The DM argued that because of true seeing the Titan was able to see him because trueseeing allows one to see through magical darkness.
The pc argued that true seeing doesnt see through concealment which is what he was due to his ability.
We ended up winning the fight, but there was a long argument about this situation. Thoughts?
Again, same encounter and same pc. The pc wanted to sneak attack the titan but because the titan is huge the PC would have had to found a way to hit the vitals of the titan who was much larger. Therefore using a fly, or a jump check, etc.
It did state in the book something to the effect that one must be able to reach the vital points of a opponent.
The pcs arguement was achilles tendon, joints, etc.
Also, the pc mentioned there is a class called gnome giant slayer or something like that that deals critical damage or sneak attack damage to giants and how is it they can do sneak attack damage without being able to hit their vitals.
The arguement ended quickly when it stated in the book you must be able to reach the vitals. Do any of you have house rules on that? or just go by the book. Because when I go back to DMing Im thinking about changing that rule.
I also believe in terms of constructs that they have no weak points, but having the spell to sneak attack them explains that the character goes after joints within the construct to deal damage. (so my friend said)
The PC was pissed off because he felt the DM was finding any loop hole, any cheap trick to nullify his abilities when there are all ready ways to protect oneself from sneak attacks.
Thanks
MB

 

[Dandu]

By RAW HiPS is not detectable via True Seeing.

I don't know if a rogue can sneak attack a titan, but I would allow it. There are plenty of vulnerable spots on the foot, after all.

 

[Dross]

This didnt affect me but I was wondering your opinions or facts on these situations.
We were fighting a Titan our last game and one of the pcs has the hide in plain sight ability. I think that allows you to hide in plain sight as long as shadows are near you. The PC casted darkness to gain concealment.
The titan had true seeing on so he sees through the darkness.
The DM argued that because of true seeing the Titan was able to see him because trueseeing allows one to see through magical darkness.
The pc argued that true seeing doesnt see through concealment which is what he was due to his ability.

The problem as I see it is this:
Dandu does not explain why, but True Seeing does not see through concealment, and the PC is concealed (I'm assuming that that is Dandu's entire argument).

However, if the concealment is only due to magical darkness which the titan can see through, is the rogue concealed?

Umm. . I'm inclined to say "No concealment" but would not fight hard against it. But the group/DM should make that call.
As noticed by someone else in a different thread, if you brighten the area to produce lots of shadows like a Daylight spell, there is no problem.

The pc wanted to sneak attack the titan but because the titan is huge the PC would have had to found a way to hit the vitals of the titan who was much larger. Therefore using a fly, or a jump check, etc.
It did state in the book something to the effect that one must be able to reach the vital points of a opponent.
The pcs arguement was achilles tendon, joints, etc.
Also, the pc mentioned there is a class called gnome giant slayer or something like that that deals critical damage or sneak attack damage to giants and how is it they can do sneak attack damage without being able to hit their vitals.
The arguement ended quickly when it stated in the book you must be able to reach the vitals. Do any of you have house rules on that? or just go by the book. Because when I go back to DMing Im thinking about changing that rule.

Actually that argument "proves" that you can't sneak attack a titan's foot, because:
The specific rule beats the general rule, so if the feat/PrC specifies something, then without it you can't do it under normal circumstances (yes, it is a bit rules lawyery/strange logic).
The Hamstring(?) feat in CAdv(?) muddies it a bit because the target area of the feat would be in reach of a rogue but trades SA dice to pull off the effect.
A definition of Vitals is not really given, so the group/DM probably needs to come up with one.

...but having the spell to sneak attack them explains...

It is a spell, it does not follow the normal "logic" of the no vulnerables so no SA.

 

[Dross]

I don't know if a rogue can sneak attack a titan, but I would allow it. There are plenty of vulnerable spots on the foot, after all.

While I'd accept that ruling Dandu, what critters would now fall under the "has vulnerables out of reach" classification?

 

[Dandu]

While I'd accept that ruling Dandu, what critters would now fall under the "has vulnerables out of reach" classification?

Titan on stilts.

 

[Vegepygmy]

The DM argued that because of true seeing the Titan was able to see him because trueseeing allows one to see through magical darkness.
The pc argued that true seeing doesnt see through concealment which is what he was due to his ability.
We ended up winning the fight, but there was a long argument about this situation. Thoughts?

I agree with the DM.

Again, same encounter and same pc. The pc wanted to sneak attack the titan but because the titan is huge the PC would have had to found a way to hit the vitals of the titan who was much larger. Therefore using a fly, or a jump check, etc.
It did state in the book something to the effect that one must be able to reach the vital points of a opponent.
The pcs arguement was achilles tendon, joints, etc.

I agree with the player.

Do any of you have house rules on that?

I have never ruled that a creature that isn't totally immune to sneak attacks was immune to a specific sneak attack because its vitals were unreachable, but I have also never explicitly house-ruled away that limitation.

 

[billd91]

However, if the concealment is only due to magical darkness which the titan can see through, is the rogue concealed?

Umm. . I'm inclined to say "No concealment" but would not fight hard against it. But the group/DM should make that call.
As noticed by someone else in a different thread, if you brighten the area to produce lots of shadows like a Daylight spell, there is no problem.

I have to say that if the thing providing the concealment does not apply, then there's no concealment. If the titan can see through the magical darkness and that's what's enabling the concealment, then the rogue isn't concealed at all.

Concealment isn't an absolute condition. It depends on the factors providing concealment being appropriate. If there's a bush between the rogue and his target, that provides concealment. If there's another enemy able to see the rogue without the bush being in the way, there's no concealment for that enemy. The same is true with darkness and shadows. If they don't apply to the target, there's no concealment.

 

[Dandu]

HiPS depends not on concealment, but there being shadows. There are still shadows even if True Seeing is active.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, anything that had appendages that it would not be hurt or mechanically affected by losing them... Some creatures have tentacles that regrow if cut off, for example.

I would totally count striking at someone's foot as a "vital" area, you can really disfigure or maim someone with a well placed stab/slash/smash there.

 

[Vegepygmy]

HiPS depends not on concealment, but there being shadows. There are still shadows even if True Seeing is active.

While it is true that the ability's description doesn't actually say the shadow must provide concealment, it is strongly implied.