Questions about Time Lords, High Lords, and other stuff

TrueSpade

First Post
Hey guys, I'm new here, but I got into D and D (I think 3.5) a few years ago, and still prefer that one.

Anyways, The Immortals Handbook got my attention, and I started reading up on it, but I got some curious thoughts I didn't see covered. So without further ado, here are my questions on Time Lords:

1.) Can a Time Lord have a cohort? (Because they are so "High Up" that might not be able to.) And if they can have one, would it automatically get Divine Ranks? If so, how many?

2.) Do Time Lords always have to fight eachother on sight? (This may come off as pretentious, but I assure you I'm not joking. when you get that strong, paranoia could seep in XD)

3.) (this next one gets kinda offensive, so please bear with me) Can a Time Lord have offspring? The reason I ask is maybe being so old or powerful could remove "cellular make up" and a whole bunch of other technecalities.

Also, if a Time Lord *can* have offspring, would it automatically be an abomination? (I read Infernals were offspring of deities with fiends. But Time Lords are way more powerful.)

Kinda makes me wonder what would it be like if he had a kid with an Astral Deva or Nymph instead. Would their be a diffrence?
 

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[MENTION=326]Upper_Krust[/MENTION] is the author and is a poster here, so maybe he'll be able to answer your questions!
 
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The real answer is: The IH is sufficiently unfinished and poorly-balanced that "DM Makes Something Up" is the answer to every Cosmic-level and above question.

Not only do Time Lords get Cohorts, they're almost always at their ECL-1, due to the way the Leadership tables work, and that nearly every Time Lord will have every stat at Infinity. Worse is that they get sub-cohorts, an infinite number, in fact, all of whom are exactly as powerful as their cohorts. The only thing stopping them from being more powerful than you (or rather, level infinity) is a line in the ELH saying you cannot recruit a cohort of your level or higher.

They can have whatever abilities they want as long as their ECL is less than the indicated number (although I usually ruled that you can name your cohorts and followers Disciples or Prophets, and this ignores the ECL limit on Cohorts, but that was part of the "DM Makes Something Up" clause that happens whenever you do anything with the IH).

Time Lords pretty much automatically know when they're going to lose a fight, because they can all see the future. This generally means nobody fights unless they have a way of cornering the other.

Time Lords can have offspring if they want to have offspring. They have Alter Reality (with a probable Spellcraft DC of Infinity). They can do whatever the hell they want. You appear to have misread the rules for divine progeny. Abominations are only generated if neither party wishes to pay the QP cost (although I've had instances where various other mishaps produce Abominations, but those are house rules).

@UpperKrust is the author and is a poster here, so maybe he'll be able to answer your questions!

Upper_Krust jumped ship to 4th Ed (leaving everyone who bought the IH with a product that will never be complete), so good luck in getting an answer out of him.
 


TrueSpade said:
Hey guys, I'm new here, but I got into D and D (I think 3.5) a few years ago, and still prefer that one.

Howdy TrueSpade and welcome to the forums! :)

Anyways, The Immortals Handbook got my attention, and I started reading up on it, but I got some curious thoughts I didn't see covered. So without further ado, here are my questions on Time Lords:

Glad the book caught your attention, I'll try and help answer questions as I can.

1.) Can a Time Lord have a cohort? (Because they are so "High Up" that might not be able to.) And if they can have one, would it automatically get Divine Ranks? If so, how many?

The Cohort Rules in the Epic Level Handbook will rapidly break down at Immortal levels. I think they probably work fine up until about Level 40-50.

However for Immortals I probably would have needed to do another table. That said, in the Epic Bestiary I do outline how power retinues of Demon Princes and Archdukes of Hell (among others) could be and I think you could have maybe 1-10 beings of about 2/3rds your ECL as cohorts.

2.) Do Time Lords always have to fight eachother on sight? (This may come off as pretentious, but I assure you I'm not joking. when you get that strong, paranoia could seep in XD)

Conflicts between Time Lords would be literally like starting another big bang. I don't think they would always have to fight. Some may indeed co-operate.

3.) (this next one gets kinda offensive, so please bear with me) Can a Time Lord have offspring? The reason I ask is maybe being so old or powerful could remove "cellular make up" and a whole bunch of other technecalities.

Absolutely.

Also, if a Time Lord *can* have offspring, would it automatically be an abomination? (I read Infernals were offspring of deities with fiends. But Time Lords are way more powerful.)

Abominations are the offspring of immortals and fiends (Infernals are a type of abomination).

Entities are the offspring of cosmic gods and other beings (non-similar beings).

Anomalies are the offspring of Time Lords with other races (non-time lord that is).

I think I have rules in Ascension for Divine Progeny and how powerful they would be.

Kinda makes me wonder what would it be like if he had a kid with an Astral Deva or Nymph instead. Would their be a diffrence?

Power plays a factor. So it depends how powerful the two hosts are. The child will be weaker than the average of both. I forget offhand how powerful the Progeny is, but I am sure I have this all detailed in Ascension.

If you have any further questions feel free to ask. :)
 

Ahoy there Buugipopuu! :)

Buugipopuu said:
The real answer is: The IH is sufficiently unfinished and poorly-balanced that "DM Makes Something Up" is the answer to every Cosmic-level and above question.

On the contrary, the IH is wonderfully balanced up to about Level/ECL 100 and playably balanced up to about Level/ECL 200. After that it becomes crazy, but thats what happens wen you mess with beyond infinite power.

Not only do Time Lords get Cohorts, they're almost always at their ECL-1, due to the way the Leadership tables work, and that nearly every Time Lord will have every stat at Infinity. Worse is that they get sub-cohorts, an infinite number, in fact, all of whom are exactly as powerful as their cohorts. The only thing stopping them from being more powerful than you (or rather, level infinity) is a line in the ELH saying you cannot recruit a cohort of your level or higher.

Yes I don't think the Cohort Table from the ELH really had beings with potentially infinite charisma in mind when it was being designed. :D

They can have whatever abilities they want as long as their ECL is less than the indicated number (although I usually ruled that you can name your cohorts and followers Disciples or Prophets, and this ignores the ECL limit on Cohorts, but that was part of the "DM Makes Something Up" clause that happens whenever you do anything with the IH).

I think thats a bit harsh. Just because something in a seperate book when added to over 1000th-level characters in my book just happens to be exploitable is hardly cause for comments like "DM Makes Something Up" clause that happens whenever you do anything with the IH". Thats like saying because you can make Pun Pun with WotC books that they are completely broken.

The mighty WotC with its dozens of game designers and editors still had loopholes in non-epic play. So what chance a book with one designer that takes the game into Level 1000 and beyond...?

Upper_Krust jumped ship to 4th Ed (leaving everyone who bought the IH with a product that will never be complete), so good luck in getting an answer out of him.

You know I actually maintain a forum here at ENWorld where I routinely answer any and all questions about 3E or 4E Immortals?

Eternity Publishing Hosted Forum - EN World: Your Daily RPG Magazine

So its less a matter of good luck getting an answer out of me as much as simply...asking. :)

Thanks for the mention Jester. ;)
 

On the contrary, the IH is wonderfully balanced up to about Level/ECL 100 and playably balanced up to about Level/ECL 200. After that it becomes crazy, but thats what happens wen you mess with beyond infinite power.

Ahahahahahahah. You make funny joke. It good. I laugh. Level 100 is already good enough to gain Shapechange, which is better than any other Divine ability. Miles better. By level 100 you can turn into an Astral Hydra and get a breath weapon that puts every actual damage dealing [Breath] effect to shame, and for fewer DvAs with a shorter cooldown time. Divine Breath x2 gets you 30d3 every 1d4 rounds. Polymorph + Shapechange gets you 8x40d12 every 1d2 rounds. I wonder which one's better. And you get Panversal, which is a Transcendental ability, and a bunch of other abilities. Or you can turn into an Elder Quintessence Elemental, and at level 100, with a bunch of class features behind them will utterly annihilate everything even vaguely CR-appropriate. That the Elder Unelemental isn't even that good a form says a lot about how good Shapechange is. And Metamorph can be got at this level too, which makes everything even more insane.

Okay, so that's just one DvA, but then there's the portfolios, which are all over the place. Just try to claim that Entropy (with its 'vulnerability' that's actually advantageous in many cases, the best [Effect] ability, easily the best Quasi-Deity ability, because it affects created undead rather than just summons), isn't much better than most of the others, or that Healing doesn't suck. Its Demi-Deity ability doesn't even do anything unless you're playing with a limited number of pre-3.5 supplements, its weakness is horrendous (especially if you're using touch-range healing), and all of its abilities provide healing, which doesn't contribute to your effectiveness in battle, and is so easily obtained out of battle that the need for a healer seen at low levels disappears.

The Epic and Divine (and also the Cosmic, which is technically available sub level 100) Combat Expertise abilities make attack bonus granting abilities more effective at raising AC than anything that directly raises AC.

All the [Effact] abilities that target things other than HP are miles better than the others, as the resource they target scales linearly with level, while hitpoints scale with the square of level, except Thieving, which deals so little damage as to be useless (and is generally useless as actual wealth acquired with money is pointless when everyone gets scaling artefacts).

And those are just the most obvious things, and the ones that didn't use any non-core material or even touch on the balance of class features.

I think thats a bit harsh. Just because something in a seperate book when added to over 1000th-level characters in my book just happens to be exploitable is hardly cause for comments like "DM Makes Something Up" clause that happens whenever you do anything with the IH". Thats like saying because you can make Pun Pun with WotC books that they are completely broken.

The mighty WotC with its dozens of game designers and editors still had loopholes in non-epic play. So what chance a book with one designer that takes the game into Level 1000 and beyond...?

Oh, this is nothing like the kind of optimisation work that created Pun-Pun, the Hulking Hurler or the Wish and the Word. Those things require complex builds, multiple splatbooks (usually crossing edition and campaign setting boundaries in ways that were never intended) and generous interpretations of the rules to become broken. The IH is broken on its own. With just it, the Epic Bestiary, and the SRD. Usually just by taking single abilities. You can afford Nullification, Enlightened or Abrogate on an item at 72nd level (which is 'wonderfully balanced', you're keen to remind us), and once you've got it, nobody can do anything to stop you. In the case of the two cockblock abilities because they basically stop anyone from doing anything, and in the case of Enlightened, because it lets you bootstrap your way up to becoming a High Lord by casting progressively better Epic buffs to your Int until you can meet the DCs of the spells that grant divine templates.

But the real reason behind "DM Makes Something Up" being the default response is that so many abilities are poorly specified to the point where using them goes beyond Rule Zero and into the territory of There Were No Rules So We Had To Invent Some. What does the Morale penalty of Disheartening Dodge apply to? How is 'place of worship' defined in Theopea? What do you have to do to be considered 'hunting' a creature with Telelocation? What does Spell Shot actually do? What does Self Mastery actually let you do? Do the template-granting DvAs increase ECL? Does Moonstruck do so (it gives actual extra HD, after all), how do the Legendary [Creature] abilities interact with bonus HD from class features, dragon age categories, and non-animal creatures? Do High Handed and other Improved Unarmed Strike abilities only function with natural weapons, even though it doesn't say this? What's your effective druid level for Dragon Companion, and is the HD limit before or after bonus hit dice? What does "You cannot change the anyfeat while you have a previous use of the anyfeat in effect." actually mean? Does Sideways Stealing provide any mechanical benefit at all? Do the armour mastery feats affect anything other than armour check penalties (by RAW they don't)? And that's not even going into Portfolio abilities, which are often even more poorly specified and subtly different from other identically named abilities, or combinations of abilities, or Cosmic abilities and above. And this didn't require dozens of designers pulling full-time work like you claim, most of those things become obvious if you actually try to use them under any normal circumstances, because the ability, as written, does not actually provide the Dungeon Master with enough information to use it in a game.
 

Wow, that's pretty aggressively impolite right there, dude.

I get that you're unhappy with the product you bought, but if you want answers from the author, he's right here. Driving him away by being rude to him (when he's already responded politely to your first rude post) isn't going to help you find your answers.

Just sayin'.
 

Conflicts between Time Lords would be literally like starting another big bang. I don't think they would always have to fight. Some may indeed co-operate.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do-wDPoC6GM"]Rowan Atkinson is Doctor Who - Classic Comic Relief - YouTube[/ame]


(Don't have much to add about the Immortal's Handbook, other than I once spent some time devising plans to solo a Neutronium Golem with a level 20 wizard. I remember that thread well.)
 
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Wow, that's pretty aggressively impolite right there, dude.

I get that you're unhappy with the product you bought, but if you want answers from the author, he's right here. Driving him away by being rude to him (when he's already responded politely to your first rude post) isn't going to help you find your answers.

Just sayin'.

The thing is, I don't actually want any answers. I've already answered those questions myself (and in an effort to blunt the power curve at that level, and running so many houserules that his answers have a chance of being incompatible with my setting anyway). I would have ignored his post entirely had he not opened with the, quite frankly insulting, claim that the IH is 'wonderfully balanced'. If he won't even admit when he's wrong, I see no reason to be polite to him.

See my comment below, please. -- Piratecat
 
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