D&D 5E Quests from the Infinite Staircase TOC and Zargon.

Brandes Stoddard shared the table of contents from Quests from the Infinite Staircase, along with the stats for the elder evil Zargon the Returner, over on BlueSky. Quests from the Infinite Staircase comes out on July 16th, and is an adventure anthology for character levels 1-13.

 

[Necropolitan]

I mean, why not? I don't see him doing anything particularly chaotic.

And from a practical point of view it is useful to have a lawful option in the GOO warlock patron list.

Zargon's a hungry beast who only doesn't eat his followers because he likes being worshiped, transforms his followers (who are a cult of drug-addicted hedonistic madman who dwindle in numbers as time goes on thanks to their self-destructive habits) into mindless oozes the moment he doesn't need them anymore, and has an alliance with the (Chaotic Evil) Demon Lord Juiblex in the Elder Evils book. You'd barely need to change anything to make Zargon a Demon Lord.

So Chaotic Evil seems like the Alignment that fits him best.

I think Elder Evils only listed him as Lawful Evil because it retconned his origin so he was an Ancient Baatorian from the Nine Hells and so had to be Lawful Evil.

And Pandorym already exists as a Lawful Evil Elder Evil.

Or Atropus, but I think that's another case where the Lawful Evil Alignment doesn't make sense since Atropus is an undead world who blindly seeks to end all life everywhere, so Neutral Evil would make more sense for him.

 

[Parmandur]

Zargon's a hungry beast who only doesn't eat his followers because he likes being worshiped, transforms his followers (who are a cult of drug-addicted hedonistic madman who dwindle in numbers as time goes on thanks to their self-destructive habits) into mindless oozes the moment he doesn't need them anymore, and has an alliance with the (Chaotic Evil) Demon Lord Juiblex in the Elder Evils book. You'd barely need to change anything to make Zargon a Demon Lord.

So Chaotic Evil seems like the Alignment that fits him best.

I think Elder Evils only listed him as Lawful Evil because it retconned his origin so he was an Ancient Baatorian from the Nine Hells and so had to be Lawful Evil.

And Pandorym already exists as a Lawful Evil Elder Evil.

Or Atropus, but I think that's another case where the Lawful Evil Alignment doesn't make sense since Atropus is an undead world who blindly seeks to end all life everywhere, so Neutral Evil would make more sense for him.

Older editions books like Elder Evils or even B4 don't necessarily have any impact here. Only what ia in this book is necessarily canon about Zargon for this book.

 

[Necropolitan]

Older editions books like Elder Evils or even B4 don't necessarily have any impact here. Only what ia in this book is necessarily canon about Zargon for this book.

Can you point to any changes this book made that ARE relevant?

If it's the same then it's the same problem, if they changed things to make Zargon being Lawful Evil make more sense then they fixed the problem.

The only thing I've seen that's changed is that current canon has Asmodeus as a god so the bit from Zargon's Elder Evils backstory about gods not being able to strike him down was removed.

 

[dave2008]

The only thing I've seen that's changed is that current canon has Asmodeus as a god...

Is that 5e canon? That was 4e canon, but unless it has changed since the MM, the Asmodeus 5e canon gives him power like a lesser god, but implies he is not one (from the 2014 Monster Manual):

"The Nine Hells has a rigid hierarchy that defines every aspect of its society. Asmodeus is the supreme ruler of all devils, and the only creature in the Nine Hells with the powers of a lesser god."

 

[MonsterEnvy]

We will have to see what his lore is when the book comes out.

 

[Parmandur]

Can you point to any changes this book made that ARE relevant?

If it's the same then it's the same problem, if they changed things to make Zargon being Lawful Evil make more sense then they fixed the problem.

The only thing I've seen that's changed is that current canon has Asmodeus as a god so the bit from Zargon's Elder Evils backstory about gods not being able to strike him down was removed.

Don't know, we don't have the book yet. But older books aren't a sure guidepost to saying what thebdela with Zargon the Returner is here. And here at least, he is Lawful Evil.

 

[Necropolitan]

Is that 5e canon? That was 4e canon, but unless it has changed since the MM, the Asmodeus 5e canon gives him power like a lesser god, but implies he is not one (from the 2014 Monster Manual):

"The Nine Hells has a rigid hierarchy that defines every aspect of its society. Asmodeus is the supreme ruler of all devils, and the only creature in the Nine Hells with the powers of a lesser god."

The novels set in the 5E Forgotten Realms have him as a god (the final Brimstone Angels novel said it was a relatively recent thing that came from him consuming the fallen god Azuth) and sourcebooks other than the Monster Manual vary.

That was from 2016 onwards anyway.

And that's not getting into the convoluted mess/mystery that is the backstory for/actual state of Asmodeus.

 

[dave2008]

The novels set in the 5E Forgotten Realms have him as a god (the final Brimstone Angels novel said it was a relatively recent thing that came from him consuming the fallen god Azuth) and sourcebooks other than the Monster Manual vary.

That was from 2016 onwards anyway.

And that's not getting into the convoluted mess/mystery that is the backstory for/actual state of Asmodeus.

OK, for the RPG, per the design team, only the core books are canon: 5e canon

Now, something interesting is that the original links and statements on canon from the WotC website are no longer available. So is that still the SOP? IDK.

FYI, here are some Enworld links on the subject of what is canon in 5e (with quotes from Crawford and Perkins):
WotC: Novels & Non-5E Lore Are Officially Not Canon
WotC Explains Canon in more detail

 

[Necropolitan]

OK, for the RPG, per the design team, only the core books are canon: 5e canon

Now, something interesting is that the original links and statements on canon from the WotC website are no longer available. So is that still the SOP? IDK.

FYI, here are some Enworld links on the subject of what is canon in 5e (with quotes from Crawford and Perkins):
WotC: Novels & Non-5E Lore Are Officially Not Canon
WotC Explains Canon in more detail

The core books contradict themselves so the novels not being canon is irrelevant.

 

[dave2008]

The core books contradict themselves so the novels not being canon is irrelevant.

1st, How so? How have the PHB, MM, and DMG (the only core books per the statements from WotC, at least until the 2024 versions) contradicted themselves?

2nd, if the novels are irrelevant (which I agree with), why did you bring them up as canonical justification?