D&D 5E Quests from the Infinite Staircase TOC and Zargon.

Brandes Stoddard shared the table of contents from Quests from the Infinite Staircase, along with the stats for the elder evil Zargon the Returner, over on BlueSky. Quests from the Infinite Staircase comes out on July 16th, and is an adventure anthology for character levels 1-13.

 

[Necropolitan]

Of course this statblock has it identified as an Aberration, so that is some change from the 3e era.

If they're removing the Ancient Baatorian retcon then Aberration makes the most sense.

It still doesn't explain why they're keeping Zargon's Alignment as Lawful Evil if they're going to have the backstory be more in line with the original module from what the spoiler images show.

 

[dave2008]

If they're removing the Ancient Baatorian retcon then Aberration makes the most sense.

It still doesn't explain why they're keeping Zargon's Alignment as Lawful Evil if they're going to have the backstory be more in line with the original module from what the spoiler images show.

we will know (or not) in about 2 weeks. I don't expect there to be any explanation, nor do I need one. But you never know!

 

[Eyes of Nine]

I would have hoped for maybe 10 more pages on each adventure. I get the originals were 32 plus maps, but would have been nice for each to be slightly expanded.

Mostly that's just me wanting more When a Star Falls. Build out the wilderness more and add a few side quests.

Honestly I'm buying the whole book for this adventure and you should too.

Me I'm buying for Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, as I plan on running one of my groups through it. They are travelling from Waterdeep to the Spine of the World, which is where I set it. This is a follow on after Lost Mines, with a detour through Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan. The group covers 1-2 encounters a session, and we play ~10 times a year. They started on Feb 13th 2022, and have just now reached the 3rd level of 4 in Hidden Shrine. The last 2 levels are short though.

All of which to say... Infinite Staircase is an auto-buy for me, and just in time too! I have had on my RPG to-do list for a long time to start converting the Tsojcanth AD&D encounters to 5e. Now I don't have to. Thanks WotC!

 

[Paul Farquhar]

we will know (or not) in about 2 weeks. I don't expect there to be any explanation, nor do I need one. But you never know!

A difference that makes no difference is no difference.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Asmodeus has had the status of Archfiend, Lesser God, Greater God, Elder Evil, etc. depending on the setting and edition and has numerous backstories.

Around 3rd Edition they stopped trying to reconcile them and instead just said that his true backstory isn't known but there are lots of possibilities.

Then 4th Edition had him become an angel who became a god by betraying his former god, but 4th edition is it's own setting.

And 5th Edition keeps retconning stuff relating to Hell so there's no knowing where it will stand in the near future.

Well the situation (when it made sense in AD&D ) was that the Archdukes were considered Lesser Gods. That was changed in 2nd Edition when they tried to get away from the potential of gods as 'monsters' and the whole Baatezu, Tanar'ri debacle to avoid using the terms devil and demon. So initially they pushed the Archdevils (and Gods) way down the road and just gave us Avatar stats.

When that controversy ended they should have just reverted the mechanics at least (ie. Lesser Power) back to the default AD&D, since any other scenario messes up the whole thing from making sense.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Personally I don't care what he is "officially." I was thinking about the hierarchy of hell the other day and I think I'm going with something like this:

Duke of Hell: Ascended Initiate (=demigod)
Archduke of Hell: Ascended Temporal (=lesser deity)
King of Hell (one of the Nine): Ascended Celestial (=intermediate deity)
Emperor of Hell: Ascended Empyreal (= greater deity):

So Asmodeus is equivalent to an intermediate or greater deity in my book (depending in which fiction you choose to believe)

Well that probably works, as long as you give a thought for how one thing impacts everything else.

(IMO) I don't think there is a valid reason why Asmodeus should be more powerful than say Orcus, Demogorgon or Graz'zt.

In the AD&D lore at least, Asmodeus position as King of Hell was tenuous and held together like a house of cards. Once you start just boosting him 'because he's the King' you lose the whole political aspect that makes the Nine Hells so interesting and ripe for roleplaying. Having all the Archdukes (including Asmodeus) be Lesser Powers is maybe more fun.

However, the fly in the ointment was 2nd Edition's introduction of the Intermediate Deity status. Which was probably used to differentiate between the Greater Gods who were not the heads of Pantheons from the Greater Gods that were the heads of Pantheons. But that nuance seemed lost on everyone (including the designers).

Interestingly it all made sense in AD&D where the demons, devils and daemons were accredited with one Greater God and then the Archdukes and Demon Princes etc. For the Devils that Greater God was the imprisoned Lucifer (via the Dragon Magazine article) which played into the Dante's Inferno aspect of things.

So I don't think there is a right or wrong way (especially given how few campaigns it will be relevant to) but I would lean towards making the Archdukes all Lesser Powers in 5E.

It would be nice to see an Archdevil, a Demon Prince, a Daemon Master, a Slaad Lord, an Elemental Prince, an Elder Evil and a Primordial (with a bunch of attendant servants) in the 2025 Monster Manual given they have stated they want to flesh out the higher Challenge Ratings a bit, but I suspect that is but a pipe dream.

 

[dave2008]

(IMO) I don't think there is a valid reason why Asmodeus should be more powerful than say Orcus, Demogorgon or Graz'zt.

I typically have Asmodeus on par with Demogorgon and those two slightly more powerful than other Lords of the Nine or Demon Princes respectively. So they would all be intermediate level of power, just with Asmodeus and Demogorgon slightly more powerful.

It would be nice to see an Archdevil, a Demon Prince, a Daemon Master, a Slaad Lord, an Elemental Prince, an Elder Evil and a Primordial (with a bunch of attendant servants) in the 2025 Monster Manual given they have stated they want to flesh out the higher Challenge Ratings a bit, but I suspect that is but a pipe dream.

It sure would, but it is not going to happen.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Well the situation (when it made sense in AD&D ) was that the Archdukes were considered Lesser Gods. That was changed in 2nd Edition when they tried to get away from the potential of gods as 'monsters' and the whole Baatezu, Tanar'ri debacle to avoid using the terms devil and demon. So initially they pushed the Archdevils (and Gods) way down the road and just gave us Avatar stats.

When that controversy ended they should have just reverted the mechanics at least (ie. Lesser Power) back to the default AD&D, since any other scenario messes up the whole thing from making sense.

I don't think the Archdukes were considered lesser gods in AD&D. With the exception of Asmodeus it was mentioned that power wise many were around the same level as the Dukes, and many of the dukes were around the level of or just were pit fiends.

Asmodeus was the only one of them clearly above the others in all regards.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Like here is the ranking of the Arch Devils in AD&D considering their HP and Armor

Bottom Pit Fiend (13 Hit Die, Ave 45 HP, AC -3)
Princess of Hell Glasya (69 HP, AC -2)
Duke of Hell Titivilus (86 HP, AC -2)
Duke of Hell Bael (106 HP, AC -3)
Duke of Hell Hutijin (111 HP, AC -4)
Duke of Hell Amon (126 HP, AC -2)
Archduke Moloch (126 HP, AC -3)
Archduke Geryon (133 HP, AC -3)
Archduke Mammon (139 HP, AC -3)
Archduke Dispater (144 HP, AC -2)
Archduke Belial (154 HP, AC -4)
Archduke Baalzebul (166, AC -5)
Archduke Mephistopheles (188 HP, AC -6)
King of Hell Asmodeus (HP 199, AC -7)

Asmodeus also had the power to deal damage equal to his HP in a large areas 3 times a day, so he is for sure on top.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I don't think the Archdukes were considered lesser gods in AD&D. With the exception of Asmodeus it was mentioned that power wise many were around the same level as the Dukes, and many of the dukes were around the level of or just were pit fiends.

Asmodeus was the only one of them clearly above the others in all regards.

1st Edition Manual of the Planes states the Archdevils are considered Lesser Gods in their home plane. Says the same for Demon Princes. The Archomentals (princes of Elemental evil) are demipowers.