Quick Question: Attacks of Op in the Suprise Round

[Goolpsy]

Well... You do not really threaten anythig while being flat-footed... and neither do you threaten what you do not know is there, in the suprise round... Yet still you can get an AOO from combat reflexes... I do not see the Argument :/

 

[glass]

Well... You do not really threaten anythig while being flat-footed...

You do if you have Combat Reflexes.

and neither do you threaten what you do not know is there,

You threaten squares. You know the squares are there.

in the suprise round... Yet still you can get an AOO from combat reflexes... I do not see the Argument :/

...because you are misstating the argument.

I am not yet convinced one way or the other, but basic errors like that are hardly going to help your cause. Of course, Hyp appears to be on your side so maybe your cause doesn't really need any more help...


glass.

 

[Goolpsy]

You do if you have Combat Reflexes.

You threaten squares. You know the squares are there.

...because you are misstating the argument.

I am not yet convinced one way or the other, but basic errors like that are hardly going to help your cause. Of course, Hyp appears to be on your side so maybe your cause doesn't really need any more help...


glass.

As i finished of: "somehow you can still get an AOO with combat reflexes.." so argumenting i mistaken everything when i infact did state that in the end, doesn't hold.

Threatening a Square is something you do when you are in Combat... You aren't directly in a combat during the suprise round.. Cause you do not know there is a combat...
The Suprise round is an oppotunity for someone to act against you BEFORE combat starts..

I might be able to find relevant passages for my Arguments. I am not, however as keen to all pages in the Books, as some of you are.

oh btw: "You threaten squares. You know the squares are there." <--- in combat you do threaten squares YES, but not against invisible creatures etc. (as for what i wrote "you dont threaten what you dont know is there")

Im sorry but if you dont agree with me at this last part? I think we have a serious problem regarding rules, and especially anything covering Invisibility....

 

[Felix]

To me, doing something (whatever that is) is an action.

Unless I am very much mistaken, as defined by the rules, an AoO is not an action. It is not a free action, an immediate action, a swift action, a full-round action, a standard action, a move equivalent action, or a 1 round action. I think that's all of them.

There is a difference between acting (doing anything at all, including day-dreaming) and performing a rule-defined action.

To hopefully explain my thoughts on this subject:
Noticing the head full of teeth that has surprisingly appeared and is aimed at your (or your comrade's) head is not an action. If you are surprised, you do not see it coming. If not, you do.

Seeing it or not is not in question. If you have an enemy that jumps out of the bushes at you and attacks, barring any method of remaining concealed throughout the attack, you see it. A panther that leaps from the bushes and attacks? Everyone sees it. A trap that fires spears at you? Everyone sees them.

What the surprise round functionally determines is how quickly you are able to react to what you see (aware vs unaware). You failed the spot check to see the orc throw his spear; this does not mean that you are unaware that your barbarian friend has been run through and is now screaming horribly in pain. You simply take longer to gather your wits about you and react to the situation. An Invisible opponent who attacks and breaks his invisibility no longer requires Spot checks to see; you're all aware of him and yet you still can't act in the surprise round.

If you are not surprised, you are flat-footed and, if you have Combat Reflexes, you can have a slap at the head as it comes in, providing it moves through your threatened area or otherwise provokes an attack of opportunity.

...yes? You spent a feat to do this.

Combat Reflexes + Reach Weapon + good Spot/Listen/Touchsight/etc = Potential Death to Ambushers.

So? You spent a feat, your skill points, gave up a shield, and chose your weapon all to be able to get one, maybe two attacks, on one opponent at the beginning of combat. If the enemy closes to melee. If this is a complaint, it's similar to saying someone with a Tower Shield, Combat Expertise and 5 ranks in Tumble has too high an AC.

You don't think someone should be able to build a character who has cat-like reflexes? Because really that's what this build is.

Flame on.

You want to be flamed?

One question: do you believe the text does not allow a character with Combat Reflexes to make AoO's in the Surprise round, or do you simply dislike the rules that allow a character with Combat Reflexes to make an AoO, and wish it were otherwise?


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Lastly, to make an AoO, even with Combat Reflexes, you must threaten. To threaten with a weapon, you must wield it. If there is a difference between "wielding a weapon" and "holding a weapon", then it is possible to disallow a character with CR his AoO in the surprise round.

If you want to be a RBDM.

 

[robberbaron]

One question: do you believe the text does not allow a character with Combat Reflexes to make AoO's in the Surprise round, or do you simply dislike the rules that allow a character with Combat Reflexes to make an AoO, and wish it were otherwise?

The former. The latter is silly.

Having re-read my posts I didn't think I was being particularly obtuse.

[Edit] No, I did not want to be flamed, I just realise that there are some posters out there who seem to view disagreement as a personal insult.

 

[Felix]

The former. The latter is silly.

I doubt you'd win friends on the House Rules board calling something that didn't appeal to you personally, "silly". Not that there aren't worse things you could have said.

Having re-read my posts I didn't think I was being particularly obtuse.

I asked because the biggest source of confusion on the Rules board is the difference between asking "What the rules say" and "What should the rules say". I simply wanted to clarify.

If it was your opinion that someone surprised should not be able to act, then there really isn't anywhere for the discussion to go. Since your strict reading of the rules renders a different result than mine, then further discussion is warranted.

----

Ok. Here's the text:

Unaware Combatants
Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

Flat-footed
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

Combat Reflexes
With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.​

I should say that the Attack of Opportunity text does not say "this is not an action". It does say that an "Attack of Opportunity is a single melee attack". It is also of note that the Attack of Opportunity section of the Combat chapter in the PHB is not part of the Actions In Combat section.

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Being unaware does not make you flat-footed: all characters who are aware must roll initiative; that character who goes last in the Surprise round remains flat-footed until his turn in the initiative order. He remains flat-footed despite being aware.

If you are unaware you do not get to act until your initiative in the first round of combat; unawareness merely delays the beginning your first turn, and does not cause you to be flat-footed.

Flat-footedness prevents taking an AoO. Combat Reflexes strictly allows taking an AoO while flat-footed, as long as all the other AoO criterion are met.

Is it possible to be aware and flat-footed? Yes.
Is it possible to be unaware and flat-footed? Yes.
If you have Combat Reflexes are you able to take an AoO while flat-footed? Yes.

Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round.​

A combatant who is unaware and makes an AoO because of Combat Reflexes still does not get to act: he may not move, mount a horse, or perform any of the actions listed in the Actions In Combat section of the Combat chapter. He may both take an AoO and not take any actions.

I should say that while the AoO definition is, "a single melee attack", it is not, "a single melee attack action". There is a difference between "an attack" and "an attack action".

 

[irdeggman]

From PHB pg 137

Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity (but see Unarmed Attacks, page 139).

Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and you can only make one per round. You don’t have to make an attack of opportunity if you don’t want to.

An experienced character gets additional regular melee attacks (by using the full attack action), but at a lower attack bonus. You make your attack of opportunity, however, at your normal attack bonus—even if you’ve already attacked in the round.

An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character’s turn).

PHB pg 144

Speak

In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Some DMs may rule that a character can only speak on his turn, or that a character can’t speak while flat-footed (and thus can’t warn allies of a surprise threat until he has a chance to act). Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action; to communicate more information than that, your DM may require that you take a move action or even a full round action.

Looking at the text it would appear that:

you threaten any square that you can make a melee attack into, even if it is not your turn.

{Wouldn't the surprise round qualify for that?}

an AoO interupts the normal flow and is immediately resolved.

{So why would being surprised remove that effect?}

speaking is a free action that can be taken anytime - but some DMs rule that a character can't speak when flat-footed and thus can't warn his allies of a surprise threat.

{Seems like the authors intended that you can do things even while surprised - like talk. It is a "some DMs" rule that you can't, which indicates that it is not the default intent.

The restriction for not making an AoO while flat-footed was placed there for a reason. One of them obviously being to prevent making an AoW when surprised. But the Combat Reflexes feat specifically allows a character to make an AoO when flat-footed so it bypasses this restriction.

There are other things that are specifically forbidden when flat-footed - like taking an immediate action for example. An immediate action is much like an AoO in that it can be done even when it is not your turn. If it didn't have the restriction that you couldn't do it when flat-footed then it would like wise have to be allowed in a surprise round, since speaking apparently is.

 

[argo]

To Argo: You cant alter the chain of logic... suprise round doesn't state: you are flat-footed, hence you are unaware..
It states that the "victim" is UNAWARE... hence, as a sideeffect he aquires the flat-footed condition.

I'm... fairly certain that is exactly what I said.

Unaware combatants dont get to act in the surprise round. You are flat-footed until you act. Combat Reflexes lets you take AoO's when flat-footed.


I don't buy this argument that "unaware" is a status that overrides flat-footed. Looking in my DMG at the list of conditions I see flat-footed defined there but I do not see "unaware" defined. I think that "unaware" is plain english used to mean "not-aware". Flat-footed is the condition and the Combat Reflexes feat takes care of that.

 

[Blue]

I would have ruled the same. The flat footed effect of the surprise round is the result of being unaware. Creatures that are unaware (which are also flat footed) can't act. Your player is only correct in that he is only dealing with part of the situation (flat footed) while ignoring the unaware aspect.

If you want to house rule to take away one of the clearly written advantages of spending a feat for Combat Reflexes to increase realism, that's your prerogative.

Hey, if your attacker is invisible, you're flat-footed because your unaware of the attack. I guess that part of Combat Reflexes doesn't work there, either. Oh, and if your opponent feints, you're unaware of the attack. Just about every time you're made flat-footed, it's because you are unaware of something. The line doesn't mean "Combat Reflexes allows you to make AoOs when flat-footed, except 95% of the time", so it must mean that you really can make AoO when unaware.

Ever notice that Combat Reflexes DOESN'T have a dex minimum? It's still at least partially useful for people with 11 Dex or lower, because it allows them to get their AoO while flat-footed. Taking that away arbitrarily because 95% of the time a PC is flat-footed is because they are unaware of something is harsh.

Good luck,
=Blue(23)

 

[Hypersmurf]

If you want to house rule to take away one of the clearly written advantages of spending a feat for Combat Reflexes to increase realism, that's your prerogative.

Please check the stickied thread at the top of the Rules forum; we consider it rude to use 'house rule' in passive-aggressive fashion.

Hey, if your attacker is invisible, you're flat-footed because your unaware of the attack. I guess that part of Combat Reflexes doesn't work there, either.

Well, you specifically cannot make an AoO against an opponent with total concealment, so Combat Reflexes is irrelevant against an invisible opponent.

Oh, and if your opponent feints, you're unaware of the attack. Just about every time you're made flat-footed, it's because you are unaware of something.

A successful feint doesn't cause you to become flat-footed; rather, it causes you to lose your Dex bonus to AC. Loss of Dex bonus does not prevent AoOs, so if someone feints and then punches you, you can make an AoO as normal; after your AoO is resolved, their attack roll is against your AC with Dex bonus denied.

-Hyp.