Quick question: Shimmering Blade, rogue 23 encounter

[abeattie]

True, but that doesn't give the DM or the player any guidance as to whether to allow the NPC to finish their triggering attack before allowing the Free action.

True, but if they made it an immediate reaction then you'd only get one per round.

I think you can fall back on the more general rule that only immediate interrupts allow you to act during another action (i.e. after an enemy declares an attack but before rolling to hit).

Thus it would function as soon as the declared action was resolved (hit + damage).

Now, what happens if attacker's power gives her a shift as part of the hit line?

 

[Davachido]

The 3 attacks per enemy thing is quite powerful I think, how does this sound for balancing it out a little?:

Change either:

1) Only targets one enemy so you can do the 3 attacks trick just to one enemy instead of all adj.

2) Make the free action an oppurtunity action thus once per enemy turn.

This a good/bad idea?

 

[abyssaldeath]

My personal opinion is to treat all triggered Free Actions like Immediate Reactions unless the power or feat specifies otherwise..

 

[Mort_Q]

This a good/bad idea?

It's an epic level power. I don't think it needs to be limited more than the existing DM ability to deny free actions.

 

[Starfox]

Once per Combatant’s Turn: You can take no more than one opportunity action on each other combatant’s turn. You can’t take an opportunity action on your own turn.

This should solve the issue; regardless of how many potential trigger situations you have, each opponent can only trigger one reaction on their turn. Right beside this it says

A trigger is an action, an event, or an effect that allows you to use a triggered action. (Some powers require a trigger but are free actions or aren’t actions at all.)

This tells us it is not the kind of action that is limited but the trigger itself; only one trigger can activate during each creature's turn.

 

[Davachido]

Thanks Starfox, That's helpful. I will go have a read through that section when I get home.

 

[abyssaldeath]

This should solve the issue; regardless of how many potential trigger situations you have, each opponent can only trigger one reaction on their turn. Right beside this it says

It's a free action not an opportunity action. Completely different type of action.

This tells us it is not the kind of action that is limited but the trigger itself; only one trigger can activate during each creature's turn.

That doesn't say that even a little. Nowhere in that sentence you quoted does it say that a trigger can only happen once per opponents turn.

 

[Starfox]

A free reaction can still be an Opportunity Action. All of these are covered by the quote I made above on a maximum of one triggered action per creature's turn.

There are basically three kinds of opportunity actions:

• Opportunity Attacks.
• Immediate actions (which can be interrupts or reactions, and which are limited to once per round).
• Free actions with triggers.

Read PH1 pages 269, 270, 291. The most important part is the introductory sentences on page 269. What is subject to interpretation is if a triggered free action is an opportunity action or not, but the entire issue (and the OPs question in this thread) runs much more smoothly is you read it that way.

 

[abyssaldeath]

A free reaction can still be an Opportunity Action. All of these are covered by the quote I made above on a maximum of one triggered action per creature's turn.

There are basically three kinds of opportunity actions:

• Opportunity Attacks.
• Immediate actions (which can be interrupts or reactions, and which are limited to once per round).
• Free actions with triggers.

Read PH1 pages 269, 270, 291. The most important part is the introductory sentences on page 269. What is subject to interpretation is if a triggered free action is an opportunity action or not, but the entire issue (and the OPs question in this thread) runs much more smoothly is you read it that way.

No, that's not right at all. There are four types of TRIGGERED actions.

• Opportunity actions (One of which is an Opportunity Attack other opportunity actions are specific powers)
• Immediate actions (which can be interrupts or reactions, and which are limited to once per round)
• Free Action
• No Action

All of those are a subset of Triggered Actions. Opportunity Actions and Immediate Action always require the use of a trigger. Sometimes Free Actions and No Actions require a trigger and when they do they are considered Triggered Actions.

Nowhere in what you quoted does it EVER state that a Free Action can be an Opportunity Action or that there is a general rule for how many times a Triggered Action can be triggered.

An Opportunity Action is it very own type of action (just like Standard, Move, and Minor) and is incapable of being both a Free Action and an Opportunity Action. That would be like saying something can be both a Standard Action and a Move Action at the same time.

 

[Starfox]

Nowhere in what you quoted does it EVER state that a Free Action can be an Opportunity Action...

From just above my last quotation:

[PH1 p 169]Two action types—opportunity actions and immediate actions—require triggers. A trigger is an action, an event, or an effect that allows you to use a triggered action. (Some powers require a trigger but are free
actions or aren’t actions at all.)

Since a triggered free action is not an immediate action and does have a trigger, that makes it an opportunity action by a process of elimination. In fact, there are no other types of action that CAN be opportunity actions by this definition and not be an Immediate action. No Action can be an Opportunity *Action* if it has a trigger. (making the term Opportunity *Action* a bit misleading).

Nowhere in what you quoted does it EVER state that... there is a general rule for how many times a Triggered Action can be triggered.

Let me repeat:

Once per Combatant’s Turn: You can take no more than one opportunity action on each other combatant’s turn. You can’t take an opportunity action on your own turn.

If we consider all triggered actions (and triggered nonactions) to be opportunity Actions, the limitation on 1/turn for triggered actions becomes clear.

An Opportunity Action is it very own type of action (just like Standard, Move, and Minor) and is incapable of being both a Free Action and an Opportunity Action...

The text I italicized is a misunderstanding on your part, and this is the major point where we differ. Immediate actions are their own type of action, and so are opportunity actions. Opportunity actions would the by elimination be all triggered actions that are not Immediate actions. An example of opportunity action is the opportunity attack. Obviously an opportunity action cannot be a standard, move, or minor action (as these are proactive actions without triggers), but it can be a free action or no action. In fact, there is nothing else it can be - there are no other types of actions left for themn to be. I did a search of the compendium and got no less than 29 hits on No Action and the word "trigger", 90 hits on Free actions and the word "trigger". Checking the results, i find that most of these are not just random mentions of the word trigger but actually reefer to triggered actions.

By my reading triggered actions include two subgroups: opportunity actions and immediate actions. By this reading, all actions with a trigger that are not immediate actions are opportunity actions. Opportunity attacks are a subgroup of opportunity actions; all other opportunity actions are either Free Actions or No Action. (Actually, later in the chapter, Immediate actions also seem to be Opportunity Actions, but lets not confuse matters further.)

My view is naturally enough that my interpretation is the simpler one that leads to the most reasonable result in the OPs question above and is closest to RAW. If my argument does not convince you, I think we have to agree to disagree. As long as you can get your game to work with another interpretation of opportunity action, its not really important what I think. What IS interesting is that the rules, even in the 4th editions, can be so unclear on so many points and would dread being the judge at a competitive event where these rules came to the test.