Quintessential Fighter/Arms & Armor/Sword & Fist: What books are you using?

[WizarDru]

If you read the review that gave the book 5 stars, the reviewer only gave it that rating to offset the negative reviews, NOT because he thought he deserved it. The reviewer flat out admitted that he would give the book 3 stars, maybe 4.

I did, and that merely shows why I don't base any purchases off of the reviews there (the reviews of Heart of Nightfang Spire, Standing Stone and Speaker in Dreams are other examples of reviews I think are way skewed). That wasn't the point, however. The good Kaptain recieved my point, which was that many folks like S&F just fine, and there was no universal opinion concerning same.

Several folks have mentioned S&F as being 'official', whatever that means. It's not core, which is what I think they're trying to say. You'll note that there are no OOBIs in any of the core modules, which so far (IIRC) has featured a single character with a prestige class, namely the arcane archer found in Standing Stone. They have more acceptance than say anything from Mongoose or the web, but that's just common sense.

I find it odd that some folks hold DotF so low in regard. I think it's one of the better class books...once you errata things like the speed attribute for armor. There are some very useful PC prestige classes, and some very useful NPC prestige classes, as well. If anything, Song & Silence was the greatest disappointment, for playing it too safe.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

I find it odd that some folks hold DotF so low in regard. I think it's one of the better class books...once you errata things like the speed attribute for armor. There are some very useful PC prestige classes, and some very useful NPC prestige classes, as well. If anything, Song & Silence was the greatest disappointment, for playing it too safe.

Here are the problems I have with DotF (in no particular order):

1) There is no temple construction time/costs for the examples given (I wanted something like the way the strongholds were presented in S&F--this would make a nice web enhancement, BTW).

2) The PrCs are either broken (i.e. Hospitaler) or too narrowly focused (i.e.Sacred Exorcist) to suit most campaigns.

3) The prestige domains were either too powerful (celerity) or no more powerful than a normal domain. IMC, I just nixed prestige domains (along with celerity) and made them regular domains without it overpowering anything. I think the prestige domain ideas was interesting conceptually, but was executed rather poorly.

4) The feats were not very useful or interesting. I can't see anybody wasting a feat on them, especially with the Extra Turning prereq most of them require.

5) There was not nearly enough information on church heirarchies (with examples of same), proper protocols between ranks and lay worshippers, religious ceremonies/rituals, interaction between clergy and their deity and its servants, etc. I came away with it with absolutely no better idea of how to roleplay a cleric than when I started.

On the other hand, I loved the new spells. That is what kept the book from being a total loss, IMO. Otherwise, it's pretty much a wash-out.

S&S was so boring it hurt me to read outside of the Poison and Traps section. The Guild info was too brief/bare bones and therefore not particularly useful. The PrCs were awful (Fang of Lolth, anyone?). The feats lacked any real panache, most being +2 to this, +2 to that (I could have thought those up myself, thank you very much--oh, wait, I already did before the book ever came out, LOL). Too much info on bard instruments. The new items were either pathetic (clockwork gnome trap-tripper thingie) or uninteresting. It should have had something in-depth on guild heirarchy and daily operations like the old 2e Den of Thieves accessory.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

And just so you guys don't think I hate all WoTC class books:

TOME & BLOOD and MASTERS OF THE WILD. These were both great books, loaded with that sweet, crunchy goodness. I have no complaints and nothing but praise for these books; they both give very good value for your gaming dollar and I wholeheartedly recommend purchasing them.

 

[Simon Magalis]

Why don't you folks preview the books before you purchase them? Most gaming stores just have the books sitting out on
a shelf. I agree that if you spent $20 on Sword and Fist that you
should try to use it if you can, but if so many people hate it, wouldn't it have been better just not to have bought it? I see people on here all the time complaining about products they have bought and not liked. Roleplaying books are no different from everything else... buyer beware.

 

[Davelozzi]

Why don't you folks preview the books before you purchase them? Most gaming stores just have the books sitting out on
a shelf...

Flipping through a book in the store is better than nothing, but not much. You might get a good sense of whether or not the prestige classes are interesting or appropriate for your campaign, but you probably can't get a good enough read to realize how erratta written a book like S&F is.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, some books are well written but take more time to get used to. For example, I flipped through Relics & Rituals numerous times and didn't buy it, because it seemed like just a bunch of spells and I didn't have time to read a lot of them in detail in the store. But then I borrowed it from someone else, gave it a more in-depth read and realized that the spells are really intersting, as is the other material, and most of it is pretty well thought out. Now I will probably pick it up when I get a chance.

I'm certainly not saying don't flip through it in the store, by all means do. I'm just saying that you probably won't get the whole picture.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Flipping through a book in the store is better than nothing, but not much. You might get a good sense of whether or not the prestige classes are interesting or appropriate for your campaign, but you probably can't get a good enough read to realize how erratta written a book like S&F is.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, some books are well written but take more time to get used to. I'm certainly not saying don't flip through it in the store, by all means do. I'm just saying that you probably won't get the whole picture.

I agree. Sometimes you get so excited or intrigued you just blindly buy something (more often this happens online than in a store). Other times, it looks good at first glance, then turns out to be crap when you get it home and pour over it. And still other books look like crap at first, then turn out to be diamonds in the rough when you give them a second chance. Buyer beware, indeed.

 

[Dinkeldog]

Quintessential Fighter got rejected by our gaming group. Basically because of stupid fighting styles and prestige classes, bad art, bad layout, and lack of grasp of d20 rules.

We're using S&F, although the errata to Expert Tactician was welcomed when it came as it only takes a handful of Rogue levels to turn that into abuse waiting to happen. It still takes a level eye for the DM and for the player. Many of the feats--especially on the monk side--were useless. The DMs have also all outlawed mercurial anythings and bladed gauntlets.

Anything with called shots is disallowed as standard through a treaty not unlikely the nuclear non-proliferation treaties in RL. Player: I think I should be able to make called shots.
Me: Okay, but the monsters are going to be making called shots, too.
Player: That's alright, on second thought, I don't think we should.

 

[Simon Magalis]

I guess my point is that I am skeptical to begin with. Take Arms and Armor. For 25 bucks for a softcover not even 100 pages long, I am going to do LOTS of looking before I even think about buying it... which I won't do btw.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Quintessential Fighter got rejected by our gaming group. Basically because of stupid fighting styles and prestige classes, bad art, bad layout, and lack of grasp of d20 rules.

You might want to check out WAR by AEG. It's got some nice stuff in it.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

I guess my point is that I am skeptical to begin with. Take Arms and Armor. For 25 bucks for a softcover not even 100 pages long, I am going to do LOTS of looking before I even think about buying it... which I won't do btw.

That's what I did. I checked it out carefully first (for 30 minutes of reading, then 30 minutes of deliberation weighing it vs. other stuff I wanted to get), only then did I decide it was worth it. YMMV, but you shouldn't dismiss it out of hand. It's not an essential book to own, but it is very nice to have.