D&D 4E Race Matters more in 4e?

[Li Shenron]

I'm somewhat concerned about this snippet of information



Mainly that each race is more strongly tied to a niche. That half-elves will be the "social race", dwarves will be the "tank race", etc. That by choosing something other than the "best fit" race, you'll end up penalized for daring to play against stereotypes. 3.5 did a decent job of allowing people to play against type precisely because the race changes didn't make a colossal difference. Yeah, your half-orc wizard had a -2 Int, but really you could make an effecitve wizard of any race. It let people create a character they wanted, rather than feel they were being nudged in a direction due to their race.

I;m all for making race an interesting choice. For making the races play differently and for having different fighting styles and tactics by race. I'm just concerned that in the end, we'll have elves be the uber wizards, halflings the uber rogues, and of course humans back to their 1e roots of being useless.

Totally understandable concerns... But it really depends on HOW they will do this.

If they design races so that they give something extra "on the side", then there's going to be no problem. Example: make elf wizards know a few more spell than normal.

If they design races so that they give a power up "on the top", then I see troubles ahead, since it's clear that it's not going to be a minor thing like in 3.x. Example: elf wizards getting Int bonuses or DC increase.

 

[pawsplay]

I give this snippet a thumbs down. I never liked substitution levels, they always seemed to privilege certain character concepts to me.

 

[Victim]

Apologies in advance if this sounds snarky, it's not meant to, but...

In ANY system, if you have more than one choice, unless they are all exactly the same (and thus a non-choice), there will be one that is the best...it is an inherent property of having choices at all.

While I agree with the later statements about making optimal choices not so overwhelming, I don't like the first part. Games (in the broad sense) can be constructed so that any single strategy is non optimal (mainly if the best strategy is mixed). If we think of each character build as a strategy, then having the best strategies be mixed requires teams of differing characters. Some coalition building games basically require short term non optimal strategies from the weaker players - if they aren't willing to eat a loss then their 'optimal' positions suck from a lack of bargining position.

 

[Klaus]

I give this snippet a thumbs down. I never liked substitution levels, they always seemed to privilege certain character concepts to me.

Substitution levels, as presented in the Races of... series, always covered 1) the race's favored class, 2) a class that is also deeply associated with the race (ranger for elves, cleric for dwarves), and 3) a class that is completely against type (monk for halflings, ranger for gnomes).

 

[pawsplay]

Substitution levels, as presented in the Races of... series, always covered 1) the race's favored class, 2) a class that is also deeply associated with the race (ranger for elves, cleric for dwarves), and 3) a class that is completely against type (monk for halflings, ranger for gnomes).

Which means they basically didn't cover ... nothing. That covers everything. Once you've knocked out a stereotypical member of a class, and the anti-stereotype, what you're left with is some side cases (dwarven paladins) and clerics, which mostly got the treatment anyway.

EDIT: To make it more clear, I'm not complaining that they offered incentives to elven fighters, I just wish they hadn't offered obvious advantages to elven fighters who favor the longsword or rapier over other elven fighters.

 

[Dykstrav]

Half-elves as the social masters has always seemed a bit contrived to me. They have to get along with both races, so they're charismatic? Um... go ask someone of mixed black and white parentage if they find they are better able to work with both blacks and whites. In an area where race matters (thankfully we aren't in 1890 anymore), I would say that any need to improve charisma is only to offset circumstance modifiers for bigotry. Totally not something I want introduced into my core rules, but the "charisma bonus" begs the question of why they develop it.

I never dug the half-elf as a Charisma-based race either. In fact, my own setting treats half-elves as an undesirable non-person caste that's often enslaved or otherwise exploited. At best, half-elves are quietly ignored on the fringes of society. Sure, it's not "fair," but I honestly think it's a bit more plausible than being widely accepted everywhere for a mixed breed character.

What I'd really like to see is something like the mixed species treatment in the LUG Star Trek game. You could have any two parentages you wanted (Cardassian/Klingon if you wanted, it was all good). What this benefit allowed you to do is pick the best options from the two sets. If you did it this way in 4E, you could let people pick a mix of racial abilites from any two races.

If we did this as a quick house rule to 3.5, we see that humans basically get two racial features: extra skill points and an extra feat. Elves get four major abilities that differ from humans: immunity to sleep and a bonus on some saves, low-light vision, some weapon proficiencies, and bonuses (and a free check) on some skills. So you could make a half-elf by picking one of the two human abilities and two of the four elf abilities. I'd let the player decide on their own if they wanted the ability score adjustment, as these adjustments are balanced in and of themselves.

But while this approach may "make sense," it's a bit more complicated than just treating them as seperate races. I'm also afraid that it'd encourage more min-maxing as someone tried to make a dwarf/orc crossbreed in an attempt to get a Strength and Constitution bonus. Still an interesting idea though...

 

[Lord Zardoz]

I think that the general explanation for Half Elven Charisma is as follows.

Elves are generally considered to be a Beautiful race in most fantasy settings, and they are also considered to be arrogant and aloof. It is not unreasonable to assume that a Half Elf would have much of an Elf's appearance traits without quite so much arrogance or aloofness.

In any event, it goes without saying that this will be house ruled or explained away as needed. Thus has it been, and thus shall it always be.

In my own games, I explain the prevalence of half orcs being due to the legendary bedroom prowess of Orcs.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Nyeshet]

Now, using the Saga rules, what could potentially happen is they get an automatic reroll. Roll low on that Search check Mr. Elf? Try again. Of course, you still have to worry about metamaging a bit. The character doesn't know he rolled a 2 for the Search check, so as far as he is concerned, he checked for the secret door as best he could. However, the player, upon seeing this 2 come up, will decide "I don't think I searched as well as I could havem let me roll again".

If you are going to reroll if low anyway, why not roll 2d20 and take the better of the two? It might even make sense as a racial characteristic. Elves have excellent senses, so when making Search, Spot, and Listen checks they roll 2d20 and take the better of the two. This also has the advantage that the rest of the players do not know whether he failed because it was not there to be found or because he rolled low on both rolls. If he fails the first time and you ask the elven character to roll again it is more or less a bright light to the other players that there is in fact something to be found there - if they can think of a non-metagame reason for their characters to also take notice. If the elven PC rolls 2 d20s when searching - just as they normally would in such a system - then there is no spot light effect.

Of course, there are likely problems with this that I am overlooking.

 

[FireLance]

I'm guessing there will be racial talent trees for each of the classes, so that a dwarf fighter could emphasize his "dwarfness" by picking options from that tree. However, a dwarf that doesn't want to do that could pick options from the other talent trees instead.

 

[RigaMortus2]

I like the idea what an Elven Fighter will be slightly different than a Dwarven Fighter which will also be slightly different than a Human Fighter etc.