D&D 5E [Radiant Citadel] A chart of parallel Earth cultures and motifs across the D&D Multiverse

[Yaarel]

Tharquish = Rome (Italy)
Ishtar (Ishtarland) = Babylon (Iraq)

But Ishtar sailors (Gulf of Ishtar) = Phoenicians (Lebanon)

 

[QuentinGeorge]

Tharquish is Rome.

The link between Babylon = "beast" = Pope is a different (unfortunate) archetype.

That’s irrelevant, Istar is very clearly meant to invoke medieval Catholicism complete with crusading orders, ominous Latin chanting, cathedrals and libraries of forbidden books.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

W

Tharquish = Rome (Italy)
Ishtar = Babylon (Iraq)

But Ishtar sailors = Phoenicians (Lebanon)

You keep asserting without evidence and what does Tharquish have to do with this at all?

 

[Dungeonosophy]

Istar (≈ Babylonian goddess Ishtar) is mainly Iraq Mesopotamia. However, Istar (≈ related Canaanite goddess Ashtarte) is Lebanon fertile crescent.

In this sense, the Istar "mariners" are prominently the coastal Phoenicians, today Lebanon. The Phoenicians have sailor port towns all around the Mediterranean, even as far as Spain, and Carthage in Africa is a famous example, today Tunisia.

Yaarel, you have really cool ideas -- I love the maps of Oerik you sent me. And I aim to look at your suggestions closer to see what I can glean for my chart.

Yet, for the purposes of my chart, your suggestion that Istar (Krynn) and Ishtarland (Oerth) ought to also be listed under the "Canaanite" section doesn't fit with my purpose. That's like how another person (at the Piazza) was making the case that the kirin aren't just Japanese (and Chinese)...they're also found in Korean and Vietnamese mythology.

I was like: "True. But the purpose of my chart isn't to list all the real-world synonyms for every earthly mythological being. My chart is just focused on what the published TSR/WotC texts say, and making a close interpretation of what the designer's intent was, given the milieu in which the book was written. There's no evidence that, prior to the invention of Wikipedia, that the TSR designer of the kirin was thinking of the Korean or Vietnamese version of that creature."

I'd say the same thing about Istar (in Krynn) and Ishtarland (in Oerth). Ishtar is associated with Mesopotamia. The name is in the Akkadian language. Ishtar - Wiktionary
I believe you that there was a Canaanite synonym (Astarte), but surely Weiss and Hickman (for Istar) and Skip Williams or Gygax (for Ishtarland, or whoever coined the names for the Oerik map) was looking at the Babylonian name "Ishtar" and not the Canaanite version when they were naming and designing those lands.

That's why Istar (Krynn) and Ishtarland (Oerth) are in the Mesopotamian section on the chart.

 

[Yaarel]

W

You keep asserting without evidence and what does Tharquish have to do with this at all?

The French comic, "Black Moon", has quasiofficial status, in that it had official permission from TSR to use Oerth as the setting of the comic. Meanwhile, the map confirms the names and cultures that the comic portrays.

Tarquish is explicitly Roman-esque (Roman architecture, Roman soldiers with Roman armor and weapons), albeit renaissance and medieval Italy infuses the culture too.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

That’s irrelevant, Istar is very clearly meant to invoke medieval Catholicism complete with crusading orders, ominous Latin chanting, cathedrals and libraries of forbidden books.

It's not irrelevant. Both are relevant. It's relevant that the Hickman & Weiss chose to use a name from Akkadian mythology. The biblical theme of the "Fall of Babylon" is about, well, "Babylon" after all.

And yes, since Luther's time, that "Babylon" motif has been "applied" to the Catholic church institutions by various authors or polemicists.

And you have a point that the Akkadian "Istar" name, and the Hebrew biblical "Fall of Babylon" theme, are filled out with ~Medieval Catholic analogies. Would you be willing to type up a few quotes and sources for those good points you made?

 

[Dungeonosophy]

The French comic, "Black Moon", has quasiofficial status, in that it had official permission from TSR to use Oerth as the setting of the comic. Meanwhile, the map confirms the names and cultures that the comic portrays.

Tarquish is explicitly Roman-esque (Roman architecture, Roman soldiers with Roman armor and weapons), albeit renaissance and medieval Italy infuses the culture too.

I saw a few pictures of Tarquish -- it looked more Classical Greek to me. Do you have any links to more images?

 

[Yaarel]

Here is a wiki about the Black Moon comic.

French: Chroníques de la Lune Noíre.

Even tho this is in French, not English, it is part of the Oerth apocrypha.



(Note also, Tharquish is an "Empire", the Roman Empire, so Greece and other areas can be part of this Empire too, in addition to Italy. Many of the 1e and 2e designers were Classical historians. They know who the Phoenicians are, especially that they are sometimes rivals. Probably, one of the nearby islands near the main Tharquish island, is Greek-esque.)

 

[Yaarel]

Here is the quasi-official map of planet Oerth, created by Skip William along with other D&D designers, with TSR traditions in mind.

Now, the yellow and purple text is my own reconciling of various Oerth traditions, often from text descriptions without a map.

Of interest here are the decorations.

At the top right, is a Norse-esque ship, near where the winter "Barbarians" are.


But at bottom left is a full-on Greek warship, called (among other names) the trireme. This area of the continent is where "Classical" history happens, including Greece, Rome, Babylon, and other nearby cultures.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

Sure, in the 2e book Tales of the Lance: World Book of Ansalon, pg 55-56. I just had another read, the sea barbarians are listed as descendants of mariners from Istar. I've copied the relevant sections below for the sea barbarians. Lifestyle looks like it has some info on where they maintain some more permanent settlements. I always thought of them as the archetype for the mariner warrior class, probably helped along by the art used in the book.

Appearance
Sea barbarians have richer skin tones than other barbarians. Their skin ranges from light brown to glowing black. They wear their tightly curled black hair closely cropped to their heads. Their eyes flash with emotion—joy one moment and wrath the next—much like the volatile sea. Sea barbarians enjoy flamboyant and gaudy garb of sailcloth, homespun, or burlap. Life among the roaring billows and pitching waves makes these folk boisterous and courageous. Even so, they are the most civilized of the barbaric races.

Personality
Sea barbarians differ greatly from their barbarian brothers. On the outside, these loud, friendly people brim with good cheer. Underneath, though, sea barbarians harbor a haughty pride that keeps them distant from other races. Even so, sea barbarians deal fairly with those they meet and, given time, develop friendships that can weather any storm.

History
The sea barbarians have an entirely different history. They arose as mariners of once-mighty Istar. The Cataclysm destroyed the heart-city of their shipping business and dispersed the mariners throughout the world. Since the Zero Hour, mariners have led a somewhat nomadic existence. They never settle permanently: the urge to travel fills their blood.

Lifestyle
The sea barbarians live differently. Although they spend most of their time at sea, they do dock occasionally. Descendants of city dwellers, these barbarians maintain port cities where they can rest and sell their cargos. The city of Sea Reach on the island of Saifhum is one such bedroom town for sea barbarians. They forbid foreign traffic into Sea Reach, wishing to keep the foul folk of Ansalon at arm's reach.

Here's the revised entry for Krynn, from the African section of the OP:

~African:

• In Krynn: There are three Black human cultures in Ansalon:
  • The Empire of Ergoth and the Ackalites. Maquesta Kar-Thon, a black woman who is the most famous pirate in the Dragonlance Chronicles, is an Ergothian half-elf. As is usual with Krynnish motifs, the Ergothian culture does not appear to be especially based on Africa; only the physical appearance of the people. However, the Ackalite people within Ergoth have a more traditional / indigenous culture. Since the real-world cultural sources of the Ergothian Empire are not quite clear to us, the Ergothians are included in this African section (rather than the African Diaspora section) for a simplistic reason: the Ergothians aren't depicted as a "diaspora."
  • The Sea Barbarians. They are a distinct nation which has existed since before the Cataclysm. Their main haven which is known to us is the city of Sea Reach on the island of Saifhum. For source quotes, see this post. In earthly terms, their culture is somewhat evocative of the sailors of the ~Swahili Coast.
  • The Black Nordmen (home of Theros Ironfeld) (See the ~Norse section for their culture.)