Raging magic item use?

[Darklone]

Honestly hong, during my fights I had other things to do than thinking about quickdrawing my mobile phone and calling someone nice....

And I don't really think I would have been raging

 

[LokiDR]

If so, it's a weak one. At high levels, everyone has magic items out the wazoo, and these items form an integral part of their capabilities. Saying that if the barb uses his signature ability, he suddenly can't use half or more of his magic, is pretty extreme.

This does not eliminate use activated items. Weapons can be activated before raging. Many abilites last for a while (ala boots of flying). Rage says it precludes casting spells. So you should not be able to use abilities that act like spells. I don't think it is a weak argument.

A raging barb can think coherently enough not to kill his friends. They should be able to think coherently enough to say "flame on!" or whatever.

Flavor: you can not recall and clearly enunciate magic activation words. Magical activation words should not be anything as common as "flame on"

 

[hong]

This does not eliminate use activated items. Weapons can be activated before raging. Many abilites last for a while (ala boots of flying).

And many don't.

Rage says it precludes casting spells. So you should not be able to use abilities that act like spells. I don't think it is a weak argument.

A spell trigger or command word item does not "act like a spell" (in terms of activating it). You speak the command word, or perform the triggering action, or whatever, and it works. I can ready an action to hit someone if they use a staff or activate boots of speed, but it won't interrupt the activation. That's distinct to scrolls, which do require a Concentration check if interrupted.

Flavor: you can not recall and clearly enunciate magic activation words. Magical activation words should not be anything as common as "flame on"

By this logic, a Stilled spell could be cast while raging, because it doesn't involve "magic activation words". Activating magic items is more than just getting the words right. In fact, I'd say it has almost nothing to do with getting the words right, otherwise any random person could activate your own items by saying the correct words.

 

[Hypersmurf]

By this logic, a Stilled spell could be cast while raging, because it doesn't involve "magic activation words".

[coughSilentcough]

-Hyp.

 

[Saeviomagy]

LokiDR - a balance argument requires that there be something which that particular situation, character or ability is unbalanced when compared with.

Please give me the other end of your scale?

 

[LokiDR]

LokiDR - a balance argument requires that there be something which that particular situation, character or ability is unbalanced when compared with.

Please give me the other end of your scale?

An unprepared (surprized) barbarian, say 15th level, is attacked by a dragon. If the barbarian rages, he can not activate boots of flying to go after the dragon or icy-burst to hurt the dragon, instead he gets 30 extra hp and a strength bonus. Those 30 hp could easily be the thing that saves his life.

Raging barbarian has been beaten down so that he is eating into his extra-con HP. He wants to escape, via helm of teleportation or those same boots of flying. However, he would drop if he let the rage go. Big difference.

 

[LokiDR]

And many don't.

So? Choose better next time.

A spell trigger or command word item does not "act like a spell" (in terms of activating it). You speak the command word, or perform the triggering action, or whatever, and it works. I can ready an action to hit someone if they use a staff or activate boots of speed, but it won't interrupt the activation. That's distinct to scrolls, which do require a Concentration check if interrupted.

Barbarians are not limited to "not performing actions which would require a concentration check to compete if hit." They "cannot use skills or abilities that require patience and concentration". Remembering a specific magical phrase requires patenience, and at least a little concentration.

Would you allow a barbarian to use a wand? That doesn't require a concentration check or provoke an AoO.

By this logic, a Stilled spell could be cast while raging, because it doesn't involve "magic activation words". Activating magic items is more than just getting the words right. In fact, I'd say it has almost nothing to do with getting the words right, otherwise any random person could activate your own items by saying the correct words.

So it does require concentration on the part of the user. Thank you for proving my point.

 

[Saeviomagy]

LokiDR - that's still not a balance argument. A balance argument would have to be "A barbarian WITH this ability is more powerful than other characters in the game to such a level that it detracts from the game, because he can:...".

Under your definition of a 'balance argument', wizards are unbalanced. Because a wizard who CAN cast spells is clearly better than one who cannot. Therefore wizards being able to cast spells is a balance issue, and the same goes for any ability given to any class.

Furthermore, let's compare the use of a command word item with some other things that a barbarian definately CAN do.

He can take a full-round action to listen carefully.

He can make wilderness lore checks to avoid getting lost.

But he can't say a command word?

 

[Lord Pendragon]

If we believe that
a) the barbarian's rage was originally meant to prevent use of command word magic items; and
b) that the barbarian (so interpreted) was balanced with the other classes by the designers; then

reinterpreting the rage ability to allow the use of command word magic items unbalances the class relative to the other classes.

Now one might claim that the unbalance created is quite small and thus insignificant; or one might claim that the barbarian as written was underpowered and thus this reinterpretation re-balances the class.

But I don't think you can argue against an unbalance if you believe the designers did a good job of creating the classes, and the playtesters did their job. Allowing command-word magic items is giving the barbarian more power, and it's power the designers didn't mean them to have.

 

[LokiDR]

LokiDR - that's still not a balance argument. A balance argument would have to be "A barbarian WITH this ability is more powerful than other characters in the game to such a level that it detracts from the game, because he can:...".

Yes, it is. Rage prevents spellcasting. A barbarian who is allowed to use spell effects on command is more powerful that one who cannot. Rage is more useful by your interpretation and the class was balanced on the opposing viewpoint.

Under your definition of a 'balance argument', wizards are unbalanced. Because a wizard who CAN cast spells is clearly better than one who cannot. Therefore wizards being able to cast spells is a balance issue, and the same goes for any ability given to any class.

Furthermore, let's compare the use of a command word item with some other things that a barbarian definately CAN do.

He can take a full-round action to listen carefully.

He can make wilderness lore checks to avoid getting lost.

But he can't say a command word?

Wizards ARE broken

Seriously, wizards can not rage and cast spells. Neither can barbarians.

I would argue that spending a full round to listen would be an action that requires patience, and therefore not applicable during rage. Could he use open lock? The SRD doesn't say he can't.

Asside from the command word issue, can you agree that spell trigger and spell completion items are not usable during rage?