Raging magic item use?

[hong]

So? Choose better next time.

Are you trying to STEAL MY SCHTICK, "Loki" DR, if that is your REAL trollerizing pseudonym?

Barbarians are not limited to "not performing actions which would require a concentration check to compete if hit." They "cannot use skills or abilities that require patience and concentration". Remembering a specific magical phrase requires patenience, and at least a little concentration.

What part of "flame on" requires patience or concentration?

Would you allow a barbarian to use a wand?

Yes, assuming the barb has the required levels in a spellcasting class. Why not?

That doesn't require a concentration check or provoke an AoO.

Exactly. Just as sneak attacking also doesn't require a concentration check or provoke an AoO.

So it does require concentration on the part of the user.

Tell me again which part of

Activating magic items is more than just getting the words right.

implies "concentration on the part of the user". All it implies is that activating spell trigger items involves something more than a simple word or ritual. It does not imply conscious effort or concentration. Recall that we're talking about magic here.

Thank you for proving my point.

You're new here, aren't you?

 

[hong]

the class was balanced on the opposing viewpoint.

The class was balanced on the viewpoint that you cannot cast spells while raging. Activating magic items != casting spells. If it was, then _every_ instance of the former would be treated like the latter, including drawing Concentration checks, AoOs, etc. Further, there would also be no difference in the item creation costs for different types of activation.

I would argue that spending a full round to listen would be an action that requires patience, and therefore not applicable during rage. Could he use open lock? The SRD doesn't say he can't.

Irrelevant. Command word or spell trigger items do not require a full round to activate.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Seriously, wizards can not rage and cast spells. Neither can barbarians.

A cleric with the Madness domain can...

-Hyp.

 

[LokiDR]

Damn Hong, for a person who calls himself a troll in his own sig, I would have throught you would be the last one bashing my tatics Honestly, I don't think it a huge deal, I just like arguing. See my sig.

How about this: Rage is supposed to prevent the use of spells. As this a significant drawback, I have to assume it was intentional to balance the ability. Any item that allows you fire off a spell without really casting it sidesteps this limitation. Hence the Sage ruled no magic item activation of spell trigger, spell completion, or command word.

Spell completion items (scrolls) are not the same as casting a spell either. You can use scrolls with spells higher than you can cast. Scroll use is not subject to Acane spell failure. I think you can agree that scroll use should not be allowed.

So, where do you draw the line. You seem to think anything that doesn't require a concentration check can be used. I think anything activates a spell should not be allowed. The sage (for whatever that is worth) ruled like I do.

As for command word items, I have to assume that any person in area of the weapon that says the command word activates the item. So wizards, being smart, would give weapons strange activation words not likely to come up in any language that the weapon owner would run into or use. So, I don't think "flame on" would a good command word, since some person might talk about turning on some device and suddenly the barbarian has a very warm back and a ruined sheath for that toasty greatsword.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Scroll use is not subject to Arcane spell failure.

I know it's in the FAQ, but I don't think anyone's ever convinced me that that's supported by the Core Rules...

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

As for command word items, I have to assume that any person in area of the weapon that says the command word activates the item.

No. Otherwise, since speaking is a free action, one could activate command-word items as a free action. Or one could craft all of one's Buff items to activate off the same word and get six rounds of preparation out of the way with one word.

Since it's a standard action, there is more to activating a command word item than just saying the word.

-Hyp.

 

[LokiDR]

No. Otherwise, since speaking is a free action, one could activate command-word items as a free action. Or one could craft all of one's Buff items to activate off the same word and get six rounds of preparation out of the way with one word.

Since it's a standard action, there is more to activating a command word item than just saying the word.

-Hyp.

That supports the same arguement, though by a different line of thought. Just holding the item and saying "flame on" won't work. Since it isn't just speaking a word, since it is a standard action, it can fall into the same place as spell trigger items, but for non-casters.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But since it's an option available even to non-casting classes, I wouldn't consider it a problem.

If I had to rule (I don't have anyone playing a barbarian, let alone a barbarian multiclass, at the moment ), I'd say no to spells and scrolls, yes to command word items, and I'll-think-about-it for wands.

I'd also allow spell storing weapons to work. Ioun Stones and Rings of Spell Storing fall into the I'll-think-about-it category

-Hyp.

 

[LokiDR]

I think I would rule no wands/scrolls, maybe to command words/spell storing. I don't see it as shattering the game, but definately giving barbarians more than they "should" get. Since I haven't seen people in my current group breaking the game with barbarians, I don't think I would mind it too much.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I think I would rule no wands/scrolls, maybe to command words/spell storing. I don't see it as shattering the game, but definately giving barbarians more than they "should" get. Since I haven't seen people in my current group breaking the game with barbarians, I don't think I would mind it too much.

I'm also one of those people who argue for the sake of it - I'm genuinely interested in the negative effects of allowing command words in this situation, and also other peoples takes on it. And the best way to find out what someone thinks is to argue with them about it...

I'd agree that spell trigger items have something more to them than just saying the words. Hell, I'd be likely to throw in AoO's and concentration checks for them, along with requiring the V and S components for the spells being used, since I already see casting a spell as being a spell trigger action in and of itself. (ie - the item is holding a prepared spell, much like a mage prepares his spells every morning, and just 'finishes' the spell at casting time)

Further to that, I'm kind of torn when it comes to command word items. Clearly it requires something more than the command word, or it wouldn't require an action. Perhaps it also requires a gesture? (brandishing the sword when you say "thundercats...", clicking your heels together for winged boots etc). I can't see it requiring more than that, or we'd be back into concentration land again.