RAI: Pinning a Dragon's Mouth Shut

[takasi]

According to RAW:

"At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking. "

So using that information, do you think rules as intended would allow a pin to prevent a bite attack or a breath weapon?

Would you allow any benefit considering the rules as intended for preventing speech?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Considering in real life people wrestle alligators (or was it crocodiles?) by successfully holding their mouths shut so they can't bite, it seems reasonable to at least prevent bite attacks. The breath weapon one is a bit trickier, I really am not sure if I'd allow that...

 

[Drowbane]

Considering in real life people wrestle alligators (or was it crocodiles?) by successfully holding their mouths shut so they can't bite, it seems reasonable to at least prevent bite attacks. The breath weapon one is a bit trickier, I really am not sure if I'd allow that...

What he said.

 

[pawsplay]

I'd say the bite could be pinned, but with the breath weapo, I'd just say that it had to include the pinning character.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Considering in real life people wrestle alligators (or was it crocodiles?) by successfully holding their mouths shut so they can't bite, it seems reasonable to at least prevent bite attacks. The breath weapon one is a bit trickier, I really am not sure if I'd allow that...

So long as the dragon was the same size or smaller than the character in question. I would not let a character pin a mouth of an animal larger than the character. So, sure ... for all those Medium or smaller dragons out there.

 

[Vegepygmy]

So using that information, do you think rules as intended would allow a pin to prevent a bite attack or a breath weapon?

If you're pinned, you're immobile, which suggests to me that you can't make any natural weapon attacks. A breath weapon doesn't require any movement to use, though, so it's not automatically out.

And if being able to prevent speech = being able to prevent the use of a breath weapon, doesn't it stand to reason that it should also = being able to prevent breathing at all? In which case, you could smother someone to death in just a few rounds by pinning them. I doubt that was the RAI.

 

[javcs]

If you're pinned, you're immobile, which suggests to me that you can't make any natural weapon attacks. A breath weapon doesn't require any movement to use, though, so it's not automatically out.

And if being able to prevent speech = being able to prevent the use of a breath weapon, doesn't it stand to reason that it should also = being able to prevent breathing at all? In which case, you could smother someone to death in just a few rounds by pinning them. I doubt that was the RAI.

Breath weapon, no. I might allow it to provide a bonus on the reflex save for others in the path, I might also allow it to distort the shape of the breath weapon.

Besides, anyone who has successfully pinned a dragon should have an ally CDG asap. Also, IME, few people remember that little aspect of pinning.

Bite weapon, yes, breath weapon, not really(it will probably have some unintended side effects)

 

[Mistah J]

Considering in real life people wrestle alligators (or was it crocodiles?) by successfully holding their mouths shut so they can't bite, it seems reasonable to at least prevent bite attacks.

I have always heard that with one of them you can keep its mouth shut so it can't bite and the other, you can keep its mouth open so it can't bite.

Darned if I can remember which is which though...

As for the breath weapon... I guess a closed mouth blocks line of effect? Maybe it would just come out the dragon's nose?

 

[Nonlethal Force]

I have always heard that with one of them you can keep its mouth shut so it can't bite and the other, you can keep its mouth open so it can't bite.

Darned if I can remember which is which though...

Considering that either can bite with 3,000+ psi (iirc), I don't think this is true. I have heard that you can keep both of their mouths closed as the muscles that open their mouths are considerably weaker than their muscles that close their mouths. But, I'm not a biologist, either.

 

[Nebten]

Besides, anyone who has successfully pinned a dragon should have an ally CDG asap. Also, IME, few people remember that little aspect of pinning.

That was true in 3.0, but not in 3.5.
If You’re Pinned by an Opponent
When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a -4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak.

Also to grapple something it can only be 1 size category larger or smaller.
This definatly can be argued both ways.
Does being unable to speak mean its mouth is covered or its being choked?
But if you are unable to breath, you can still use a breath weapon. (per-SRD)
Then again, a creature attacking with a breath weapon is actually expelling something from its mouth.

I would allow it due to creativity of the player. But that is all he would be able to do during his grapple action. The player couldn't damage the creature or to disarm it.