Railroading is bad?

[Majoru Oakheart]

This event IS railroading if the DM decided to have the patrol encounter the players

-without rolling a % DC on the encounter,
-without regard to the precautions the players (eventually) have taken to evade the patrols,
-without acting with common sense,
-just because he just wants it to happen to continue a special part of his beloved plot.

Thats railroading because the DM enforces something that should not necessarily happen onto the players and they do not stand a chance to prevent it.

Well, there are certain actions that are well within the rights of the DM. Anything not covered by the rules can pretty much be made up by the DM with the rules as guidelines.

There is no real DC listed in the books for "finding someone who just ran away". You might make track rolls to follow them, you might just make random spot rolls to see if someone sees them. There isn't a "chance that random patrols stumble upon the PCs" roll. So, the DM might say "they have enough patrols out that any given point within 5 miles of the camp will have a patrol go through it at least once every 2 hours." So, if the PCs stay in any place for longer than 2 hours, a patrol automatically finds them. Then again, exactly what chance the enemy has of finding the PCs is up to the DM. So, if he decides "they have alarm spells scattered everywhere around their camp, a wizard who can scye, multiple flying animal companions and the ability to teleport", then the PCs are unlikely to get away.

I agree with previous posters, it isn't about taking away choice from the players, it's about taking away the PERCEPTION of choice. The PCs think they can get away at any time, but the enemy is so well prepared that it is basically impossible. The PCs should know there is a heavy amount of risk involved in trying to escape and likely won't try to escape at all. However, they will feel good about it because they think they made that choice themselves, even if there basically was no choice at all.

DM: "You pump the bartender for information and he tells you about a red dragon's lair to the west."
Player: "Too risky, we go to hear rumours somewhere else."
DM: "A man offers to hire you to clean out a red dragon's lair for him."
Player: "We say no thank you and leave for the next village."
DM: ""On the way to the village you stumble onto a red dragon's lair..."

This is railroading, except you could do the same thing without railroading. You simply have an NPC ask the players what they are looking for. Then give it to them, or so they think. The dragon, being intelligent decides to get rid of what it sees as a possible threat. One of the people in town(who is doing the dragon's bidding to avoid his own death) hires the PCs to go on a different mission which is pretty close to a death trap, he sends them directly to the dragon, meanwhile telling them that they are going to fight kobolds.

Now, this is not really railroading, just using the resources you have at your disposal. The dragon IS nearby, he DOES have the ability to do that. The players can claim to be railroaded all they want, but you just role played the dragon the way he should be role played.

Then again, I consider this poetic justice for not volunteering to defeat the dragon in the first place. My players find out that being neutral in my games tends to get you killed. Evil doesn't leave you alone just because you choose to ignore it.

 

[Stormborn]

It seems that some people are going to see it as railroading anytime the DM fails to use dice to determine what happens. Personally I think its a style choice, and go back to my definition of "what works (provides fun) for you and your group isn't railroading."

If you wouldn't want to play in one of my games because you think its railroading, fine don't play. I don't want to play in a game where everything is random. I want the DM to have a plot, and take steps to ensure it. Otherwise there doesn't really seem to be a need for a DM at all.

 

[diaglo]

Otherwise there doesn't really seem to be a need for a DM at all.

we were referees first. always have been, always will be.

 

[Jupp]

There is no real DC listed in the books for "finding someone who just ran away". You might make track rolls to follow them, you might just make random spot rolls to see if someone sees them. There isn't a "chance that random patrols stumble upon the PCs" roll.

I know there is no section in the rulebooks like "Page 95, Section 4-3: Patrol finds player characters" but there is something similar that exists since the beginning of D&D, it's called encounter tables.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

If you wouldn't want to play in one of my games because you think its railroading, fine don't play. I don't want to play in a game where everything is random. I want the DM to have a plot, and take steps to ensure it. Otherwise there doesn't really seem to be a need for a DM at all.

This is my point exactly. I use a combination of rolling, rules, and decisions that don't require rolling to make a decent game. If I anticipate that the players actions are going to end up with them sitting in a tavern drinking for the whole session, I'll divert that to something more interesting. If I anticipate that the players will get themselves locked in jail, unable to get out, I will find a way to free them or prevent them from being captured.

Because any of my players is not going to find a session doing nothing interesting fun.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I know there is no section in the rulebooks like "Page 95, Section 4-3: Patrol finds player characters" but there is something similar that exists since the beginning of D&D, it's called encounter tables.

Yes, those are the tables you use when you don't have any actual planned encounters. If you KNOW what kind of creatures are around, you use common sense and maybe a bit of random chance. Still, not all things are random.

 

[Jupp]

Yes, those are the tables you use when you don't have any actual planned encounters. If you KNOW what kind of creatures are around, you use common sense and maybe a bit of random chance. Still, not all things are random.

Absolutely correct. But then, wasnt that what I was talking about before?

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Absolutely correct. But then, wasnt that what I was talking about before?

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying then. If that's the case, then we agree.

 

[The_Universe]

Absolutely correct. But then, wasnt that what I was talking about before?

But based on your previous statements, aren't all planned encounters *by their nature* railroading?

 

[Stormborn]

But based on your previous statements, aren't all planned encounters *by their nature* railroading?

That's the impression I got.