Raise Dead: A nice big bone to the simulationists

[Storm-Bringer]

I would rather have to work to explain precisely why person A was able to be raised from the dead...
... than have to work to explain why person B resolutely refuses to be raised from the dead.

But in the end, as the effort is roughly the same, what is the difference?

3.x and prior have quite clearcut reasons and rules why it wouldn't work in every single instance. Being codified in the ruleset isn't something new. It can even be a springboard or a red herring, if the DM wants. The DM could decide ahead of time that a certain NPC can't be raised for whatever plot related reasons. The PCs get wind of it, are puzzled that they weren't raised, and truck on over with their handy-dandy Cleric to raise the NPC and grab a bit of coin. Lo and behold, it doesn't work! Do they follow up with trying to figure out why? Is that central to the plot, or a device to get the characters onto the real plot? Is the upcoming adventure to retrieve that person's 'soul' from the afterlife? Possibly to convince that person to come back? Maybe the NPC had a critical piece of information, and since they can't be raised or contacted on the other plane, the players have to find a way to get to them.

If NPCs can't be raised as a matter of course, then these few plot hooks among dozens of others aren't going to occur.

There is no change from previous editions. It has always been up to the DM as to whether or not NPCs are raised.

 

[Lacyon]

But in the end, as the effort is roughly the same, what is the difference?

Why would it be the same amount of effort to explain why every raisable NPC is not raised as it is to explain why one particular NPC is raised?

 

[Lackhand]

But in the end, as the effort is roughly the same, what is the difference?

3.x and prior have quite clearcut reasons and rules why it wouldn't work in every single instance. Being codified in the ruleset isn't something new. It can even be a springboard or a red herring, if the DM wants. The DM could decide ahead of time that a certain NPC can't be raised for whatever plot related reasons. The PCs get wind of it, are puzzled that they weren't raised, and truck on over with their handy-dandy Cleric to raise the NPC and grab a bit of coin. Lo and behold, it doesn't work! Do they follow up with trying to figure out why? Is that central to the plot, or a device to get the characters onto the real plot? Is the upcoming adventure to retrieve that person's 'soul' from the afterlife? Possibly to convince that person to come back? Maybe the NPC had a critical piece of information, and since they can't be raised or contacted on the other plane, the players have to find a way to get to them.

If NPCs can't be raised as a matter of course, then these few plot hooks among dozens of others aren't going to occur.

There is no change from previous editions. It has always been up to the DM as to whether or not NPCs are raised.

Easy question! The effort isn't the same. This is a change from previous editions.

Without house rules, there are only a few conditions where some cleric actually in possession of both a corpse and a sufficient quantity of diamonds can't raise (or resurrect) the body.
To the best of my knowledge, these are:
1) The person isn't actually dead. They're alive somewhere, Magic Jar'd, simulacrum'd, or otherwise magicked out the yin-yang already.
2) The person died of old age.
3) The person died of death magic -- this can still be circumvented, but it takes even more mojo.
4) The person doesn't want to come back.

Rules as writ, that's it. That doesn't describe a large portion of the population (of death) -- most dead folk in a D&D campaign, given the cash, probably didn't die from death magic and would probably like to keep living, please. Thus cash is the limit; this means that those with sufficient wealth logically and necessarily must live foreverish.

4e takes that list, and appends to it one very important additional item:
5) They're not special enough. Before you check any of the other options, check this one! Most people aren't special enough; only explore the effects of immortality on society if you decide that everyone has enough fate to keep coming back.

 

[Celebrim]

The importance of clean water is not incompatible with the germ theory of disease. Indeed, if one believes in the germ theory of disease, one has every reason to support access to clean water.

I think you are missing my point - knowing the germ theory of disease is more important than access to clean water. The great mass of people who died didn't die for lack of clean water, they died because they didn't know what caused disease. If they had have known, they probably would have paid more attention to obtaining clean water, boiling water before drinking it, hygiene, waste disposal, and so forth. The great mass of ancients weren't dying of Cholera, which is a relatively new thing. They were dying of dysentary and small pox, bubonic plague and typhus, influenza and scarlet fever. Clean water would have helped, but not as much as knowing what caused diseases. Hense, my suggestion that magical water in itself would mainly be valuable where it would otherwise be difficult to obtain water. Like the purification system is mainly valuable in cases where the threat of rapid recontamination is low.

There is no reason to think that fantasy inhabitants don't know what causes disease within thier own world.

There is little doubt that cholera is caused by a germ.

In a fantasy world? No, I think that is greatly in doubt. I've already stated that cholera is not caused by a germ in my homebrew. It's caused by a malevolent spirit (or spirits). Those spirits are attracted to and strengthened by filth and bad odors (which also drive away beneficial protective spirits).

 

[robertliguori]

I think you are missing my point - knowing the germ theory of disease is more important than access to clean water. The great mass of people who died didn't die for lack of clean water, they died because they didn't know what caused disease. If they had have known, they probably would have paid more attention to obtaining clean water, boiling water before drinking it, hygiene, waste disposal, and so forth. The great mass of ancients weren't dying of Cholera, which is a relatively new thing. They were dying of dysentary and small pox, bubonic plague and typhus, influenza and scarlet fever. Clean water would have helped, but not as much as knowing what caused diseases. Hense, my suggestion that magical water in itself would mainly be valuable where it would otherwise be difficult to obtain water. Like the purification system is mainly valuable in cases where the threat of rapid recontamination is low.

There is no reason to think that fantasy inhabitants don't know what causes disease within thier own world.

Given the existence of random-knowledge magic, it doesn't matter if any sentient entity knows about germs. If you can word divinations to get answers back along the lines of "You can fight the plague by boiling water before it's drunk, salting and covering meat, and avoid these other conditions.", then you can get knowledge-esque results, whether you're facing natural plague or demons that just happen to act like bacteria.

In a fantasy world? No, I think that is greatly in doubt. I've already stated that cholera is not caused by a germ in my homebrew. It's caused by a malevolent spirit (or spirits). Those spirits are attracted to and strengthened by filth and bad odors (which also drive away beneficial protective spirits).

This is an interesting wrinkle. Presumably, you can cure disease simply by murdering or driving out the malevolent spirit, or just by dumping the afflicted or infected into an antimagic field, yes? Do you have spells like Trap Possessor from BoVD that would make an infected person permanently ill, but no longer contagious? Also, presumably you can consecrate the heck out of a hospital area and treat the afflicted without worry of either secondary infection or contagion?

This is one of the reasons I like D&D: it lets you take folkloric beliefs like "Diseases are caused by evil spirits." then let you stat up the spirits and run the world, and see how it turns out and what needs to be tweaked to achieve folkloric results. (No level 10+ adventurers is a pretty good start.)

 

[Celebrim]

Presumably, you can cure disease simply by murdering or driving out the malevolent spirit...

Yes, exactly that. If you are a cleric, you just request your deity get the deed done. Otherwise, you could potentially go ethereal and kill the disease, or you could summon a spirit up that could fight it, or you could try to corner it in a nightmare and kill it there. The latter is what witch doctors do.

...or just by dumping the afflicted or infected into an antimagic field, yes?

No. Natural magic like that which animates spirits is unaffected by antimagic fields. You'd have to dump the afflicted in an anti-life field to kill it, and the disease is more resistant to that than the person is. On the other hand, you could put the person in a positive energy field, and the person is more resistant to that than the disease is. Of course, unless you had some way to anchor it down, the disease would probably just flee.

Do you have spells like Trap Possessor from BoVD that would make an infected person permanently ill, but no longer contagious?

It's never come up, but yeah, you could potentially do that.

Also, presumably you can consecrate the heck out of a hospital area and treat the afflicted without worry of either secondary infection or contagion?

Yes. Over course, the consecration process would first involve cleansing the effected area physically as a necessary step to spiritual cleansing (good spirits don't have much power over filth and foulness), but its not germs you are killing or keeping away. (Although you'd have to be a scholar of the arcane to really notice differences between germs and your typical mindless least disease spirits in practice. It's one thing to suggest that at some fundamental 'quantum' level the universe is running on a different engine, it's quite another thing to try to run a game where everyday events aren't familiar to the people at the table. I'm not sure my imagination is up to it. Besides, my past experience is that if the universe is too foreign, you waste too much time in exposition trying to get the players up to speed.)

 

[Steely Dan]

Change the rules, and you change the world.

I totally disagree with this opinion; you can run a Toril or Athas or Eberron etc campaign, regardless of the rules system you are using.

 

[VannATLC]

Yes. Over course, the consecration process would first involve cleansing the effected area physically as a necessary step to spiritual cleansing (good spirits don't have much power over filth and foulness), but its not germs you are killing or keeping away. (Although you'd have to be a scholar of the arcane to really notice differences between germs and your typical mindless least disease spirits in practice. It's one thing to suggest that at some fundamental 'quantum' level the universe is running on a different engine, it's quite another thing to try to run a game where everyday events aren't familiar to the people at the table. I'm not sure my imagination is up to it. Besides, my past experience is that if the universe is too foreign, you waste too much time in exposition trying to get the players up to speed.)

I wrote a description of why poison and disease and other afflictions of the body can affect undead, in the undead have con thread.

Personally, I think 4e, in its identification of the animus as a real part of a being's core, has given me the perfect tool.

Diseases, and poisons, of all sorts, affect the connection between Animus and physical manifestation.

Whether the agent is chemical, outsider, or 'natural' in origin, in my campaign, they will all affect the animus.