D&D 3E/3.5 Ramifications of disallowing Haste in 3E?

[Dristram]

Remove Haste? I don't think that's needed.

I, like many other DM's, have had issues in their games with Haste. And Improved Inv. as well. Especially when both are used together. It wasn't so much that it made the PC mage unbalanced. It's that it's something I should use against the PC's as well and quite frankly, they'd get wasted!

I did a lot of thinking about this, and talking over with my players. They understood the issues I was having with it. A philosophy I go by is that if there is any spell that is *always* taken by spell casters, it's probably unbalanced. Haste and Imp. Inv. fell into that category. It seemed like a player was stupid not to take those spells.

I didn't want to get rid of them because they are core spells that have been around since the beginning. That made me wonder why they weren't a big issue in the 1st ed. AD&D. So I looked back as to why and found my answers. In 1E, Haste did not allow the speeding up of spell casting. So, my solution was to not allow extra casting of spells in the 3E version. Which is easy enough since it doesn't actually say it does so in the description.

About Imp. Inv., it was restricted to Illusionists only. Well, Illusionists, as a class, are gone in 3E. But there is still school specialization in Illusions. So, I've restricted Imp. Inv. to Illusionist specialists. It actually gives a good reason to take the school, and makes me feel better about the Gnomes having it as their preferred class.

So, those are the solutions I use IMC

 

[WolverineJon]

Re: Remove Haste? I don't think that's needed.

Those are creative solutions, Dristram. I don't think I'd have as much of a problem with Haste if you couldn't use the extra partial action to cast an additional spell per round.

In your campaign, do you allow the extra partial action from Haste to be used to activate spell-like effects, such as using a wand or even reading a scroll, or do you pretty much just limit it to a simple move action or attack action?

 

[Ace]

I don't think that disallowing haste is unbalanced but it isn't necessary except maybe for flavor.

 

[Crothian]

I don't think that disallowing haste is unbalanced but it isn't necessary except maybe for flavor.

If the spell is dominated the game, which it seems to do for some groups, then they take it out because of that. Some groups, it seems, cast Haste every encounter and I can understand how that can get out of hand. Wizards and sorcers casting 2 chain lightnings a round or their other devasting attack spells.

I haven't seen haste become unbalanced either. Tonight we had three encounters that turned violent and only one of them I used Haste. And that was because poison knocked my strength to a 2 and I needed the extra action to cast more hold persons on the guys trying to kill me. Other people have obviously had different experiences with the spell. And if the I used it ever fight, I could understand people's frustration. It would be like a one trick pony. And I never liked those.

 

[Starfox]

[snip] And if the I used it ever fight, I could understand people's frustration. It would be like a one trick pony. And I never liked those.

Well, isn't every sorcerer something of a one-trick pony? If a sorcerer takes haste as his first third-level spell, then it's going to see rather heavy use before the next level (about four times a day, more precisely). So if fireball or any other first choice. That's not a fault with these spells, it's a fault with the sorcerer.

As for using haste with spellcasting, I can only sorcerers doing that. Bards and even wizards will run out of spells too soon. I play an alchemist, a class of our own devising with a spell progression similar to that of the bard, and I learned haste in order to make potions. However, I have very rarely cast the spell on myself; my store of spells would be much too quickly depleted, and fireball seemed like a better choice almost every time.

 

[Crothian]

Well, isn't every sorcerer something of a one-trick pony? If a sorcerer takes haste as his first third-level spell, then it's going to see rather heavy use before the next level (about four times a day, more precisely). So if fireball or any other first choice. That's not a fault with these spells, it's a fault with the sorcerer.

As for using haste with spellcasting, I can only sorcerers doing that. Bards and even wizards will run out of spells too soon. I play an alchemist, a class of our own devising with a spell progression similar to that of the bard, and I learned haste in order to make potions. However, I have very rarely cast the spell on myself; my store of spells would be much too quickly depleted, and fireball seemed like a better choice almost every time.

THe sorcerer still has a bunch of first and second level spells tom use. You're right they are limited in spell selection. Perhaps they should be taking a more versitile third level spell then Haste, then. Ya, hasted spell casting will burn through spells fast. But you can do other things while hasted.

 

[Dristram]

Re: Re: Remove Haste? I don't think that's needed.

Those are creative solutions, Dristram. I don't think I'd have as much of a problem with Haste if you couldn't use the extra partial action to cast an additional spell per round.

In your campaign, do you allow the extra partial action from Haste to be used to activate spell-like effects, such as using a wand or even reading a scroll, or do you pretty much just limit it to a simple move action or attack action?

I hadn't given that much thought. But I consider spell casting effects standard actions with the exception of the partial action of a surprise round. So, IMC, I'm ruling that no spell-like effects can be done in the partial action grated by haste.

That is a quick decision though. If someone comes up with a good argument against that, I might change it.

 

[Starfox]

Doesn't every arcane caster pick Magic Missile and either Bull's Strength or Cat's Grace, too? Is there a problem? I still fail to see what is so bad about every spellcaster picking haste.

 

[Victim]

My problem with haste is not that it's too powerful for wizards and sorcerers. It's good for fighters too. People compare one one extra attack versus one extra high level kill spell and see that the one attack is inferior. However, if our fighter is hasted, he gets many more full attacks. Instead of Charge!, it can be partial charge + full attack.

It's a freaking addiction. Once someone fights with haste, they're going to prefer fighting with it to fighting without it. Soon, everyone fights with haste. For example, our wizard is probably going to be forced to take Mass Haste. Every will want the Haste power.

Then people without the ability to haste themselves are screwed at that point. Maybe it should be illegal to use against demihuman and human races.

 

[Crothian]

Doesn't every arcane caster pick Magic Missile and either Bull's Strength or Cat's Grace, too? Is there a problem? I still fail to see what is so bad about every spellcaster picking haste.

Actually, no every caster doesn't pick those spells. But that's neither here nor there.

There's nothing bad about everyone picking Haste. I just think there are better third levels spells to take.