D&D 3E/3.5 Ramifications of disallowing Haste in 3E?

[Crothian]

Re: Re: Haste unbalanced

You don't play sorcerers much, do you?

Game's only been out for a a bit over 18 moths. Haven't had the chance to play but two characters in the system. THe first was a Fighter/Rogue and now I'm playing a Bard. And even with the Bard's limited spells I find that creativity is still easy to do. I don't have to do the same tactics over and over again. And I do believe bards are a bit more limited then sorcerers.

 

[Starfox]

Re: Re: Re: Haste unbalanced

And even with the Bard's limited spells I find that creativity is still easy to do. I don't have to do the same tactics over and over again. And I do believe bards are a bit more limited then sorcerers.

I am sorry to say, but you beleive wrong. The bard has a much better ratio of spells known to spell slots - more spells known and fewer spell slots. The sorcerer is a lot more restricted in his choice of spells than the bard. So playing a sorcerer would probably not be your thing, as you seem to like flexibility.

I'm not malicious here. This is just a fact of life for sorcerers, and the reason so many people think they got the shaft or are no fun to DM.

 

[Crothian]

But sorceres gain spells faster. I'm an 8th level Bard, I have 6 0th level,4-1st, 4-2nd, 3-3rd


An 8th level Sorcerer has: 8-0th, 5-1st, 3-2nd, 2-3rd, 1-4th

So, I have one more 2nd and 3rd, he has 2 more 0th, 1 1st and 1 4th. And he gains spell ability faster then I do.

Edit: Lousy Grammer first thing in the morning

 

[Starfox]

An 8th level sorcerer knows a total of 19 spells, and can cast them a total of 26 times per day. Each spell will be cast an average of 1.35 times per day.

An 8th level bard knows a total of 17 spells, that he can cast a total of 10 times per day. Each spell will be cast an average of 0,59 times per day.

This is what I meant when I talked about 'ration' of spells to spell slots. The ratio of the bard is more than twice (or less than half, as I calculated it above) that of the sorcerer. Thus, the bard is more versatile than the sorcerer.

To put it in different words, the bard and sorcerer know about as many spells at level 8, but the sorcerer will use each of them more than twice as often as the bard. This trend is true at most levels (I have not checked them all).

This makes sorcerers sort of one-trick ponies, as I said before.

 

[Crothian]

I don't agree that just because a Sorcerer casts more times a day means they are excused for doing the same thing over and over. They have more chances to experiment with their spells. They can be just as creative as everyone else.

 

[Darklone]

Problem

One big problem I see with most spells: Have you ever compared the amount of raw damage spells to utility spells? I was so happy today to find several lists of creative utility spells here.

Sorcerers tend to be machine guns. Bards tend to use their spells as a last means of help.

About haste... Well. As I said already: If your players are used to one fight per day, it's awfully strong. But hunt them a bit and it'll wear off.

As for mages with Haste, Impr Invis, Fly combat rounds... That's two rounds they need. I had combats that were shorter. At least for such players.

Between ... I think about using homemade invisibility rules ... more like the PREDATOR movie. Invis gives you a bonus to hide checks and allows hide in plain sight. Nothing more. Check the relevant topic here.

 

[Dristram]

Some good points were made. For dungeon crawling adventures, where the characters have many encounters in a day and usually have no time to react, spells like haste, improved invisibility, and fly are not going to prove too unbalancing. But for campaigns that usually deal with more outside adventures, in which the characters only have one, maybe two, encounters per day, and often times get a couple of rounds of prep because "they seem them coming" those spells can be overly effective.

So, I think the balancing issue may have a lot to do with the kind of campaign that is run.