Ranged Opportunity Attacks?

[mneme]

Audiophile: actually, it does say that; read Threatening Reach. If you need TR to make OAs against nonadjacent enemies, what do you normally make OAs against?

But that's not the point (it is Obryn's argument); mine is that there's nothing letting you OA against a creature that "provokes". Only one that provokes from -you-. Reaving Axe Slayer, without interpretation, doesn't actually let anyone make OAs against the provoking creature; the feat is clearly incomplete.

 

[Aulirophile]

Ok, ok. So maybe our interpretations of RAS and OA's were incorrect. I keep saying our/we by the way because I'm posting on behalf of my entire dnd group, DM included, so saying my postings are 'my idiosyncratic interpretations' seems a little rude...

So the only way someone would be able to issue forth OA's enmasse would be for them to wield a polearm and make generous use of class features/powers to increase their threatening reach. I know of one such power, a daily Swordmage utility power called Giant's Might, which increases their size/reach until the end of the encounter, or if you choose to end it early. Does anyone know of other powers/features/etc have similar effects?

Polearm Master PP, Stoneblessed PP, one of racial Minotaur PPs, Eternal Defender ED, a handful of Warden Polymorph forms all incease your reach by 1. For threatening reach you have Polearm Master PP, Stoneblessed PP, Spear of Urrok the Brave, Spiked Chain MC power feat.

 

[Aulirophile]

Audiophile: actually, it does say that; read Threatening Reach. If you need TR to make OAs against nonadjacent enemies, what do you normally make OAs against?

But that's not the point (it is Obryn's argument); mine is that there's nothing letting you OA against a creature that "provokes". Only one that provokes from -you-. Reaving Axe Slayer, without interpretation, doesn't actually let anyone make OAs against the provoking creature; the feat is clearly incomplete.

For normal OAs. A power provoking an OA is not a normal OA. Clearly.

 

[chorolus]

I don't believe the wording in the Threatening Reach explanation is a valid argument when applied to (possible) ranged Opportunity Attacks. How hard would it be for them to simply make the same, or similar, explanation in the Opportunity Attack main section itself. It's simply making sure that everyone knows that an something with extended reach like oversized monsters, say a dragon, can make OA's anywhere within his personal reach zone.

Now I do agree with you on the RAS feat, it is probably something that's incomplete. Almost all of the other Greater Style-feats have specific powers they are associated with, and RAS simply says 'anytime you crit, x happens'. It seems a bit out of line with its peers. It also needs to be more specific about who it's provoking OA's from.

I would rather assume only you as the one who caused the effect, since provoking from everyone does seem pretty stacked--and if it did indeed provoke from everyone, then any enemy attempting to stand from being knocked prone from any effect should theoretically provoke OA's. But they don't in 4E, which I think someone said previously...provoking OA's from those adjacent to you when standing is a thing for the 3.5 days.

 

[mneme]

They've been pushing exeception-based design on 4e -- which means not having a rule for everything. Instead, what they've tried to do with OAs is to have everything that grants OAs specify its range (and have extenders either reference Threatening Reach (which is misworded compared to later templating, but that's another matter) or use a "when a creature within your melee reach provokes from adjacent enemies, it also provokes from you" wording. Basically, the wording in threatening reach is a possible source of insight into intent, but certainly not a rule.

I think we (aside from maybe Audiophile, and maybe Obryn) have reached consensus. RAS is incomplete (though it most certainly -does- have associated powers. The second benefit is: You can use Strength instead of Dexterity for attack rolls and damage rolls when using a power associated with this feat, with associated powers of Arrow of Vengeance, Bloodlust Strike: Only when used as a ranged attack, Hawk's Talon: Only when used as a ranged attack, Hobbling Shot, Lightning Shot, and Thwarting Shot), and is either intended to have the target provoke from you (as you're the one who knocked it down and are waiting for it to get up) or all adjacent enemies. It's worth asking CS which is intended, just for giggles (and to maybe encourage Wizards to clarify it) but if one rules at the table that it provokes from you and you alone, that's a reasonable combo with a throwing seeker at 16th level. What are the other builds at the table?

 

[Aulirophile]

They've been pushing exeception-based design on 4e -- which means not having a rule for everything. Instead, what they've tried to do with OAs is to have everything that grants OAs specify its range (and have extenders either reference Threatening Reach (which is misworded compared to later templating, but that's another matter) or use a "when a creature within your melee reach provokes from adjacent enemies, it also provokes from you" wording. Basically, the wording in threatening reach is a possible source of insight into intent, but certainly not a rule.

I think we (aside from maybe Audiophile, and maybe Obryn) have reached consensus. RAS is incomplete (though it most certainly -does- have associated powers. The second benefit is: You can use Strength instead of Dexterity for attack rolls and damage rolls when using a power associated with this feat, with associated powers of Arrow of Vengeance, Bloodlust Strike: Only when used as a ranged attack, Hawk's Talon: Only when used as a ranged attack, Hobbling Shot, Lightning Shot, and Thwarting Shot), and is either intended to have the target provoke from you (as you're the one who knocked it down and are waiting for it to get up) or all adjacent enemies. It's worth asking CS which is intended, just for giggles (and to maybe encourage Wizards to clarify it) but if one rules at the table that it provokes from you and you alone, that's a reasonable combo with a throwing seeker at 16th level. What are the other builds at the table?

I asked yesterday, no answer yet.

Also that isn't how my handle is spelled.

 

[chorolus]

Well yes, RAS does have associated powers. What I meant was that what I consider the best benefit of the feat is the knockdown effect, which isn't linked to any of the powers associated with it. It simply states that any and all criticals trigger the 'enemy gets knocked prone' effect.

I do realize that 4E is trying to have more streamlined, fluid rules instead of multiple hard rules to cover every conceivable situation, but this is one chink in it's armor of rules that's a little bit too ambiguous... Additional clarification is definitely needed.

In *our* opinion, ranged OA's are a bit strong, but to gain the ability to do them you have to make some serious sacrifices feat-wise as well as having the need to start as a Hybrid, or at the very least Multiclass as a Seeker to pull it off with non-bow weapons...so it really isn't overpowered when you consider how much you have to invest to even do it. It's basically like a Bow/Beast ranger with reduced range...especially with all the pet/wolf feats that allow similar 'knock prone' effects...

We do however, want to stick to non-houseruled strictures though...so until further clarification is provided I guess this character is on hold.

---

So far as what other builds are on the table... The only other good suggestion from this thread that I remember off the top of my head is the Hybrid Shaman/BM one:

Hybrid Shaman/Sharpshooter Beastmaster Ranger
She's got two 'pets' to try and corner enemies into attacking her Ranger pet. Another option is to take a multiclass feat for any arcane class...Swordmage maybe...that's a pretty big maybe, but stick with me here. She could then take the feat(s) to get a familiar and have 3 pets to use as a veritable mobile wall to simply block enemies or to try to fish for OA's.

I was actually experimenting with a melee version of this character before I started this thread, but the strategy seems to make more sense from a ranged perspective. It meshes perfectly with a ranged (probably Longbow) semi-controller focus, and could even gain some utility with limited healing spells from her Shaman roots, and could take Melora's Tide (a Channel Divinity feat) that would let her cast Regen 2 when an ally is bloodied for a little more healing power. I was thinking she could use a Halberd in melee for the extended reach, and could still take advantage of the RAS/knockdown feats in a similar fashion to the build in question. She could even do so from behind her line of minions and be safely out of harms way. If the ranged Throwing Axe/RAS combo is decided to be legal, she could even go that way though she would be a lot more pressed to make room for the appropriate feats to go with a thrown-weapon focus. Well that and she wouldn't be able to even do ranged OA's unless she could somehow MC as a seeker to take the PP for it...once again, *if* it's decided that OA's can even work that way...

Other than that one, I've got a couple other experimental builds kicking around, but none that are OA focuses other then these two.

Sorry if I tend to cause drama with my questions...I just like to try and come up with character concepts that are a bit off-the-wall. Maybe I try too hard to think outside the box when I should just go with tried and tested characters. But I get bored playing cookie-cutter builds with slight variations thrown in...and yes, I would consider a Daggavenger(even before the nerf) to be one such cookie-cutter build.

One final question before I head off to work again: Are there any Seeker multiclass feats? I can't seem to find them in the Character Builder.

 

[Aulirophile]

RAS provokes from everyone apparently. Wheeee, time to make a new LFR character.

I'd still rule it only provokes from the person who has the RAS feat.

Discussion Thread Response (Support Agent)05/04/2010 05:24 PM Hello xxxxxx,

Everyone who can get an attack of opportunity on the prone target that is standing up, will get an attack of opportunity. Happy Gaming!
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Customer (xxxxxxxxxxxxxx)05/04/2010 02:32 PM Hi!

The literal wording of this feat says that when you crit a target, it falls prone and provokes an OA if it stands up before the end of your next turn. It doesn't say who it provokes the OA from. Does it provoke it from you? Can you take it if you have some method of making ranged OAs and aren't adjacent? Does it provoke from every adjacent enemy as it if had attempted to move away?

 

[chorolus]

Awesome...you know what, the fact that it provokes from everyone is perfectly fine by me. I think I actually like that idea better then performing ranged OA's myself--it will provide additional dmg-dealing opportunities for my allies and be more of a teamwork strategy.

Still no answers on the Seeker MC question...so I must ask again....where's the MC feat? Is it not implemented into the Character Builder yet? Is there going to be one?

 

[Aulirophile]

Awesome...you know what, the fact that it provokes from everyone is perfectly fine by me. I think I actually like that idea better then performing ranged OA's myself--it will provide additional dmg-dealing opportunities for my allies and be more of a teamwork strategy.

Still no answers on the Seeker MC question...so I must ask again....where's the MC feat? Is it not implemented into the Character Builder yet? Is there going to be one?

Primal Sharpshooter [Multiclass Seeker]

Heroic Tier
Prerequisite: Wis 13
Benefit: You gain training in Nature.
Once per day, you can use the seeker’s inevitable shot power. You don’t regain the use of that power when you spend an action point.
Choose one 1st-level seeker at-will attack power. You can use that power once per encounter.