D&D 5E Ranged party member keeps running off the map

CheezyRamen

First Post
No - nobody in their right mind puts on heavy armor unless they meet the Strength requirements.
Assuming a reasonably well-built fighter is slowed by armor is yet another assumption that was true in 3e that simply no longer is.
?? Nobody in their right mind? Typically in a dungeon scenario speed is really not paramount.

If my 14 str human fighter is heading into Meat Grinders R US with Mr. Tapatio breath you better believe I am taking a 10 ft loss for AC.

Edit: Also 'well built'? If you're using a point system and/or pre set there are many builds that do not have extraordinary stats to make a character versatile. If you're 'rolling' for stats then obvi you have all 18's and the world is your oyster lol.
 
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CapnZapp

Legend
Sorry, that was more me trying to wrap my head around the idea of ranged being better. Let's take an example.

Dwarf plate axe fighter against Human leather bow fighter.

I would say that if it were 1 v 1 in an open field, yes the Human would have the advantage as long as the dwarven fighter had no other means to also bring his attack to a ranged attack. Say he had a throwing axe, not only is his high strength modifier going to help him hit, its going to be easier to hit the human because of his lack of armor (tho his dex may help him a few points.) if you stick that human in heavy armor, he loses that dexterity bonus altogether. I admit that he could simply use Thrown weapons as well but as a human he would then be slower than the dwarf unless he had str 15+. Then his thrown ranged weapons do NOT measure to a great axe/battleaxe w.e melee weapon you want most likely.

I am just not sure where ranged = better
This is because you make suboptimal build choices made out of old habit.

First mistake: player characters do not fight player characters, they should be built towards fighting monsters. (A monster with the Dwarf plate axe character's stats would be a immensely dangerous foe to meet; much more capable than most monsters) In your PC vs PC duel you miss out on very important advantages of ranged fighting. Just to mention one - the ability to reliably reach the next foe when your first attack has downed your current one. While an axe fighter will sometimes find he can't reach the next foe with his remaining movement, this happens significantly less often to somebody with 150 ft range. And even a single missed attack in a short fight tilts the balance squarely in the ranged fighter's favor.

That said, okay so it's a one on one duel.

Either assume both fighters have a +5 in their prime stat, so that the studded leather human has a a base AC of 17. Or don't assume a leather archer, instead assume a half-plate human, also with a base AC of 17.

That throwing axes can use Strength for both attack and damage in 5e is a great addition. But ultimately, thrown handaxes has only a 20 ft effective range, which means your Dwarf's range is only 45 feet.

If the dwarf goes for shield plus battleaxe, I counter the shield with the Archery fighting style and a longbow deals the same damage as does the battleaxe.

If the dwarf goes for greataxe, he does retain an advantage in the basic game. The game is better balanced without feats, see. As soon as you give the Dwarf GWM I give the human SS, which is a losing proposition for you (if only because Cleave is worthless here... this being a 1:1 duel :cool:)

In the end you will find that the Axe Dwarf has an edge, but a small one. And now for the million-dollar question: is this edge enough to balance all the benefits of range that isn't visible in this white-room duel...?

(Not to mention what would happen if I removed my silk gloves, and gave the human a hand crossbow, and both SS and CE feats. But that's an obviously broken combo in my view, so I won't)

Best regards,
Zapp

PS. You didn't elaborate on your assumptions, so just so we're on the same line here:

Even so, melee does more damage per hit. As Dex mod does not impact damage on a ranged attack but Strength mod does impact a melee hit.
That is what my Redux accomplishes. It's a change from the core 5e game.

As well as Melee users typically have higher AC and more HP.
Melee typically have one to three points higher AC. But if they use a shield, they lose much of the damage edge available to melee.

And besides, even if you only gain a single round of being able to attack while not attacked back, that easily swings the entire balance in the favor of range.

Your assumption that melee users have more HP than ranged is not true in 5e.
 
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CapnZapp

Legend
?? Nobody in their right mind? Typically in a dungeon scenario speed is really not paramount.

If my 14 str human fighter is heading into Meat Grinders R US with Mr. Tapatio breath you better believe I am taking a 10 ft loss for AC.

Edit: Also 'well built'? If you're using a point system and/or pre set there are many builds that do not have extraordinary stats to make a character versatile. If you're 'rolling' for stats then obvi you have all 18's and the world is your oyster lol.
I'm just saying it isn't fair to base your conclusions on a build like a Strength-fighter with 14 Strength, or a heavy armor fighter with 14 Strength.

I am not trying to comment on your game, and I am not saying you are playing the game badwrongfun.

I am only saying that a fighter in heavy armor that does not meet the Strength requirements will obviously lose out in a build comparison, opening up the risk of people drawing the wrong conclusions.

Don't assume fighters are slowed by armor in 5e and draw conclusions based on that, is all I'm saying.
 

the Jester

Legend
Even so, melee does more damage per hit. As Dex mod does not impact damage on a ranged attack but Strength mod does impact a melee hit.

Yes it does.

PH 196: "When attacking with a weapon, you add your ability modifier- the same modifier used for the attack roll- to the damage."
 

Satyrn

First Post
PHB pg. 20, Dwarf Traits Speed,
" Your base walking speed is 25 feet. Your speed is not reduced by wearing Heavy Armor."

PHB pg 144. Armor and Shields, Heavy Armor,
" Heavier Armor interferes with the wearer's ability to move quickly, stealthily, and freely. If the Armor table shows " Str 13" or "Str 15" in the Strength column for an armor type, the armor reduces the wearer's speed by 10 feet unless the wearer has a Strength score equal to or higher than the listed score"

This puts Dwarves at a speed advantage over other fighters with similar stats.

. . . dex-based dwarven archer paladin in full plate! (With a rapier for backup)

Oh god, I think I just wet myself.
 


Satyrn

First Post
I assume you're joking since it seems like a sucky character - no Smite with your primary weapon, no Archery style...

Well, it ain't a great damage dealer, true. But the Defense style would work. And those slots can still be used for something other than smiting. So it would be a more utility focused character than pumping out damage.
 

Satyrn

First Post
By the way - and this is for everyone! - when you think I'm joking could you please click the laugh rating. I need my fix!
 

guachi

Hero
I agree with your conclusion.

Since higher Speed blurs the distinction between slow tanks and fast strikers, I tend to avoid solution #2. Also since you need bigger maps etc. In general, the game is calibrated for relatively small-area skirmishes, so that's another reason to choose #1.

Solution #2 (make creatures faster by allowing them to dash as a bonus action as well as an action if moving in a straight line or some variation thereof) is one I like as it gives more realistic movement speeds.

Triple base movement, or 90 feet per round for humans, gives a speed of 10.2 mph. That's a speed most adventurer types could maintain for a short period of time if modestly encumbered. It just has the added benefit of enabling people to close the gap to melee faster.
 

CheezyRamen

First Post
I'm saying 5e forgot to make it happen. Try it - you will be surprised, and you will ask yourself why anybody (with cold analytical gaze) is still rolling up a melee fighter, a slow axe dwarf...!


Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

This is what I was refuting. Not that a ranged character isnt viable but that range = better. If you have a +5 in your prime attribute I doubt you are worried about much. You're assuming a colossal amount of things for the ranged character to simply make them viable whereas in my proposition the melee character had viability with average stats. That was my point.
 

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