Ranged Touch Spells with Multiple Missiles

[KarinsDad]

Question came up in my game this evening.

Spells like Acid Orb or Flame Arrow (Fiery Bolt version) where it is a ranged touch attack, but there are multiple missiles fired.

If you fire multiple missiles at the same opponent, do you:

1) Roll multiple range touch attack rolls, one per missile.

2) If the answer to #1 is yes, do you roll multiple saving throws, one per missile.

I won't respond with what my ruling was until after several people chime in with their opinion.

 

[Crothian]

I always do one attack rool and one saving throw.

 

[jgbrowning]

yep

yes, and yes.

mult rolls, mult saves.

joe b.

 

[Quez The Lame]

If you demand ( allow or whatsoever) attack rolls and saves for each missile, what about sneak attack?
Would you allow each of e.g. the flame arrows targeted on the same person to be a sneak attack ?

Lets take Negative Energy Ray as example. The spell allows you to fire up to 5 rays at one or more targets. If you targeted all 5 rays at one person you could hit him/her with 5 sneak attacks (if the onditions are given and all attack rolls are hits).
That sounds quite broken to me.

I'd say one roll/save per target, and also one sneak attack per target. IMHO that would be only fair.

 

[WattsHumphrey]

IIRC, Shurikens have erratta to clear up this very case. There are multiple attack rolls for each of the three you can throw as one action. Sneak attack damage is only done once if any of the three hit.

IMHO, it would be awesome to allow sneak attacks with every hit... but probably it isn't feasible. I'm of the opinion that if a rogue gets the drop on you that they should be able to kill you where you stand before you move (I'm a big fan of rogues). On the other hand, in a game like D&D, where it's so very easy to deny dex, it would probably be very broken to allow that rogue to get +xd6 three times for three sneak attacks.

 

[KarinsDad]

Lets take Negative Energy Ray as example. The spell allows you to fire up to 5 rays at one or more targets. If you targeted all 5 rays at one person you could hit him/her with 5 sneak attacks (if the onditions are given and all attack rolls are hits).
That sounds quite broken to me.

Well, this is handled by the FAQ in that you can only apply Sneak Attack once per attack. For example, if you use multiple shuriken.

So, regardless of whether you use one roll or multiple rolls, you would apply sneak attack damage only to the first attack.

So, given that you can only use one sneak attack per attack (not per attack roll), does it still make sense for you to have a single attack roll, single save roll?

 

[Thanee]

One attack roll and one save per target regardless of number of missiles in the volley.

Only if you attack multiple targets, you have to roll multiple attack rolls (again one per target) and saves (each target has to save independantly, obviously).

That's how I think it is done.

So my answer would be:

1) No, only one.
2) N/A

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

Ok, here is how I ruled it.

I ruled that you get one ranged touch attack per target, one save per target.

Quite frankly, the book is somewhat unclear on this. But, here is why I ruled that way:

1) No other spells (that I could quickly find) have multiple ranged touch attacks per target.

2) No other spells (that I could quickly find) have multiple saving throws unless there is multiple different types of effects.

3) Giving multiple ranged touch attacks would result in the spell virtually always hitting. To me, that defeats the purpose of putting ranged touch attack into the spell in the first place. Yes, you could miss some of the touch attacks, but some would always get through (or at least almost always). Hence, it tends to become a spell that always does some damage as opposed to one that does damage if you hit.

4) Rolling multiple rolls is a pain in the butt.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

Although I think the way you did it is fine, I require one attack roll and save per missile/orb. Especially with the orbs, that leaves the choice with the spellcaster. One "big" orb, or a few or many "little" orbs. One target, or many targets. Each choice has its own pros and cons.

 

[KarinsDad]

Although I think the way you did it is fine, I require one attack roll and save per missile/orb. Especially with the orbs, that leaves the choice with the spellcaster. One "big" orb, or a few or many "little" orbs. One target, or many targets. Each choice has its own pros and cons.

Well, the choice is still there with how I ruled.

The difference is that there is not 8 ranged touch attacks and 8 saves, just because the caster decided to throw 8 little orbs at 1 target as opposed to 1 big orb at 1 target.

In either case, you are throwing the same amount of magic at one target, hence, it should have the same effect. Not a varying effect based on a bunch of dice rolls.