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[Minigiant]

And he is very insightful, using his keen observation to understand the people around him, and to lead them, largely without what I would call persuasion in the dnd sense. His role socially is not to silently observe.

Yes but mechanically Aragorn lacks any bonuses to speech.

The stereotypical ranger isnt the face. They are the linguist.

It isn't any more complex than warlock invocations

It was more complex. I said it requires additional text.

Warlock, invocation, borrow from spell text and then does not require rewriting the effect in the class section..

didn't suggest that. I suggested making spellcasting optional, and having knacks that give spells give both the spell as always prepared and a free use of the spell, so that they are worth looking at regardless of whether you choose spellcasting or whatever alternative features are made available

And like I said, I don't see the point of it. Over having actual spellcasting, because what you're asking for is more restrictive..

It's literally how favorite enemy currently works in 2024, where the feature chooses the spell. In how many times you can use it. But you can't switch it for anything else after you choose it.

There are over 2 dozen no level ranger spells. Are we going to write 50 invocations for 50 spells?

That's not counting the fact that. And then a ranger can know a whole lot of spells and have them prepared.

The whole spell optional thing is usually a massive nerf.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yes but mechanically Aragorn lacks any bonuses to speech.

Says who?

The stereotypical ranger isnt the face. They are the linguist.

I really don't think this is supported.

It was more complex. I said it requires additional text.

Warlock, invocation, borrow from spell text and then does not require rewriting the effect in the class section..

It doesn't though. It can be complex and wordy, but it doesn't have to be. "You learn the spike growth, Animal Friendship, and Ensnaring Strike, spells." At the top of the Knack section is states, "When you learn spells from a Knack, you always have those spells prepared, and you can cast each spell once without a spell slot, or cast them with a spell slot normally if you have spell slots."

OR you base the Ranger on spell slots regardless of the features, so the big beefy beast uses spell slots to empower, leadership and support knacks use spell slots, combat maneuvers use them, and you use them to cast spells you learn via knacks or the "Warden of Primal Might" Great Knack that grants X spells when chosen and y new spells per level after that.

And like I said, I don't see the point of it. Over having actual spellcasting, because what you're asking for is more restrictive..

No, it isn't.

It's literally how favorite enemy currently works in 2024, where the feature chooses the spell. In how many times you can use it. But you can't switch it for anything else after you choose it.

What are you on about? What that i have suggested is like this? Optional knack features that add additional spellcasting? Okay?

And don't forget that i have been suggesting over and over again for all of the ranger's abilities to be changeable on a long rest. Including knacks.

There are over 2 dozen no level ranger spells. Are we going to write 50 invocations for 50 spells?

That's not counting the fact that. And then a ranger can know a whole lot of spells and have them prepared.

The whole spell optional thing is usually a massive nerf.

I don't know what weirdness you are mixing up with my suggestions, but this is absolutely not a response to my actual suggestions.

 

[CreamCloud0]

And he is very insightful, using his keen observation to understand the people around him, and to lead them, largely without what I would call persuasion in the dnd sense. His role socially is not to silently observe.

it sounds like you're conflating two different aspects of his character, rangers have to be insightful on reading their target's intentions to determine and predict how they might act, but i'm fairly sure the leadership and negotiation aspects come from his noble background rather than the ranger package.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

it sounds like you're conflating two different aspects of his character, rangers have to be insightful on reading their target's intentions to determine and predict how they might act, but i'm fairly sure the leadership and negotiation aspects come from his noble background rather than the ranger package.

Im not actually, it is two separate things.

Tangential to Aragorn and rangers, I am arguing that Insight can be an active social skill rather than reactive. That if you look at scenes of wise insightful characters convincing people, it is often the application of insight, of understanding people, rather than force of will or charm or any other aspect of charisma/persuasion.

The way this relates to rangers is that rangers have wisdom and it is worthwile mathematically for them to invest in insight, and viewing insight this way gives them more natural ways to engage proactively in social challenges.

The parts about Aragorn were in response to the idea that he is an example of the quiet observer and linguist that supposedly is the "iconic" role of the ranger in social challenges. He is not. Not only is he a leader who takes charge when appropriate, he uses insightful observation and knowledge to know how to talk to someone without need of charm or wit (though he has those as well).

 

[Mistwell]

I am not a big enough fan of his to watch his channel, what are the highlights?

The biggest change IMO is he took all the ranger-unique spells and boosted them, then switched the hunters mark always-prepared ability to be any two of the ranger-unique spells always-prepared now. So now rangers definitely have more of a unique flavor to their abilities, just from those spells.

He fixed a lot more, including all subclasses, but that one seemed particularly handy.

For he most part he didn't take much way, just added sort of an optional add-on to spells, the class and subclasses.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The biggest change IMO is he took all the ranger-unique spells and boosted them, then switched the hunters mark always-prepared ability to be any two of the ranger-unique spells always-prepared now. So now rangers definitely have more of a unique flavor to their abilities, just from those spells.

He fixed a lot more, including all subclasses, but that one seemed particularly handy.

For he most part he didn't take much way, just added sort of an optional add-on to spells, the class and subclasses.

@Minigiant and I have discussed doing that, IIRC.

Basically, hunters mark, ensnaring strike, and a couple others. Maybe not ES? I only vaguely recall the discussion at this point.

Anyway, i think it is a good idea. Its simpler than my special poisons/banes/tactics idea inspired by the NEXT playtest, and changes the class less.

Oh! I remember, my idea included Summon Beast and possibly one more level 2 spell, in spite of it still being a level 1 feature.

 

[Mistwell]

@Minigiant and I have discussed doing that, IIRC.

Basically, hunters mark, ensnaring strike, and a couple others. Maybe not ES? I only vaguely recall the discussion at this point.

Anyway, i think it is a good idea. Its simpler than my special poisons/banes/tactics idea inspired by the NEXT playtest, and changes the class less.

Oh! I remember, my idea included Summon Beast and possibly one more level 2 spell, in spite of it still being a level 1 feature.

I'd say this is the most meaningful change he proposes. It replaces the two free uses of hunters mark at level 1.

Choose any two spells from the list below that you could select as prepared Ranger spells. Those spells are always prepared for you. When you use a spell slot to cast any of the chosen spells, you may immediately recover the spell slot (no action required) by expending a number of uses of this ability equal to the spell slot level.

You begin with two uses of this ability and the uses increase when you reach certain levels as shown on the Ranger class chart. You recover any expended uses of this ability and may change your selected spells when you complete a Long Rest.

Ensnaring Strike - 1st
Hail of Thorns - 1st
Hunter’s Mark - 1st
Cordon of Arrows - 2nd
Conjure Barrage - 3rd
Lightning Arrow - 3rd
Conjure Volley - 5th
Swift Quiver - 5th

And then level 13 Relentless Hunter now says, "Taking damage can’t break your Concentration on your Ranger Spells." instead of ust Hunter's Mark.

All these Ranger spells were boosted, except a couple which were already good (I think Conjure Barrage and Conjure Volley?)

You can view all his proposed changes for free here.

 

[Minigiant]

@Minigiant and I have discussed doing that, IIRC.

Basically, hunters mark, ensnaring strike, and a couple others. Maybe not ES? I only vaguely recall the discussion at this point.

Anyway, i think it is a good idea. Its simpler than my special poisons/banes/tactics idea inspired by the NEXT playtest, and changes the class less.

Oh! I remember, my idea included Summon Beast and possibly one more level 2 spell, in spite of it still being a level 1 feature.

Level 1: Favored Enemy
You always have either the Call Primal Companion, Ensnaring Strike, or Hunter’s Mark spell prepared. From now on this is your Favored spell. You can cast your Favorite spell twice without expending a spell slot, and you regain all expended uses of this ability when you finish a Long Rest.

When you gain a level, you can change your Favored spell.

The number of times you can cast you Favored spell without a spell slot increases when you reach certain Ranger levels.

---

I remember we were attempting to think of a 4th spell.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

I played a Ranger in 3.5 and the DM let me use the arcane archer prestige class for my divine spells. He also let me craft specialty arrows which, when combined with the arcane archer prestige class let me heal from range and do other neat things, like entangle on my arrows etc...

My character was everything nature: speaking with animals and sending animal messengers. He was also incredibly perceptive and was the most reliable at spotting and hearing. Almost like the Lord of the Rings elves, “I see orcs 25 miles away” or “there’s an invisible guy”.

It felt very ranger-ish. And combine with the magical arrows, good ranged feats and the auto-two weapon fighting, he could hold his own with the wizard and the fighter.

For a 5e design, I honestly think having nature-themed invocations a la warlock would work best. A more nature focused pact of the chain would work for a beast master. A npact of the blade focused ranger with nature focused invocations would work well for melee. Etc…

And I’m not saying, “Ranger should be nature warlocks”, I’m saying the design mechanics for warlock would work very well for Ranger if you gave it its own invocations, spells and abilities. They’d have less spells that refresh more often and the invocations would let you choose non-spell abilities a la cart to customize the type of Ranger you want.