Rangers and neutral Outsiders

[CRGreathouse]

There are no N (NN, TN) outsiders in the MM. However, there's no reason they couldn't exist, and they may exist in some d20 product(s).

This seems to pose a problem with the way the damage bonus from rangers' favored enemy (or bane weapons) works: choose a type other than Humanoid and Outsider, or choose Humanoid or Outsider and a subtype. They can't be damaged!

Any thoughts?

 

[Crothian]

There are no N (NN, TN) outsiders in the MM. However, there's no reason they couldn't exist, and they may exist in some d20 product(s).

This seems to pose a problem with the way the damage bonus from rangers' favored enemy (or bane weapons) works: choose a type other than Humanoid and Outsider, or choose Humanoid or Outsider and a subtype. They can't be damaged!

Any thoughts?

That's interesting. I never noticed that before.

 

[Zerovoid]

There are no N (NN, TN) outsiders in the MM. However, there's no reason they couldn't exist, and they may exist in some d20 product(s).

This seems to pose a problem with the way the damage bonus from rangers' favored enemy (or bane weapons) works: choose a type other than Humanoid and Outsider, or choose Humanoid or Outsider and a subtype. They can't be damaged!

Any thoughts?

Sorry if I'm missing something, but why can't outsider's be damaged? A Hound Archon or Kyton or whatever has discernable anatomy and is subject to critical hit damage. How does alignment have anything to do with favored enemy?

 

[Umbran]

The problem isn't that they cannot be damaged. The problem is that the ranger cannot choose them as a sub-type. Presumably, if the DM were going to add Neutral Outsiders, he'd also have to ad the Outsider (Neutral) sub-type. That would fix the problem.

 

[CRGreathouse]

The problem isn't that they cannot be damaged. The problem is that the ranger cannot choose them as a sub-type. Presumably, if the DM were going to add Neutral Outsiders, he'd also have to ad the Outsider (Neutral) sub-type. That would fix the problem.

Whic Outsiders would this apply to? Just N/NN/TN? NG/N/LN/CN/NE? Do you see what I'm getting at?

 

[Lela]

Whic Outsiders would this apply to? Just N/NN/TN? NG/N/LN/CN/NE? Do you see what I'm getting at?

Neither one.

Just LN/TN/CN. Neutral (as in Good vs Evil) and Neurtal (Law vs Chaos) are not the same thing and wouldn't have the same anatomy.

Nor does magic affect them in the same way (Order's Wrath and Chaos Hammer vs Unholy Blight and Holy Aura) so Bane weapons have the same limitation.

I would also point out that a Neutral Outsider is usually not anyone's major foe, so it would likely only appear under "DM's Choice" on the DMG random Table.

And, no, I wouldn't ubject if one of my players wanted to prepare Protection from Neutrality or Detect Neutrality. But I would only allow it to get at LN/TN/CN creatures and outsiders.

 

[Staffan]

Personally, I'd only classify those Outsiders who are purely Neutral as "Outsider (Neutral)". LN outsiders are still Lawful, which is a valid subtype (Formians, Devils).

BTW, the MM has at least one Neutral outsider: the Janni. According to the SRD, the Planetouched doesn't have a subtype either - aasimar are considered "usually good" and tieflings "usually evil" but they don't have the Good or Evil subtype. Checking Monsters of Faerûn, it appears that Genasi don't have elemental subtypes either (which is probably explained by the special properties of the Fire subtype).

Oh, and at least Planescape had a group of extraplanars specifically dedicated to Neutrality - the Rilmani. I don't think I've seen them in any 3e product, and I can't recall seeing them mentioned in conjunction with either MM2 or Tome of Horrors either.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Just LN/TN/CN. Neutral (as in Good vs Evil) and Neurtal (Law vs Chaos) are not the same thing and wouldn't have the same anatomy.

so NG outsiders can only be touched by FE: Outsider (Good), but LN can be hit by FE: Outsider (Lawful) and FE: Outsider (Neutral)?

 

[Umbran]

Which Outsiders would this apply to? Just N/NN/TN? NG/N/LN/CN/NE? Do you see what I'm getting at?

I'll step aside a bit from the other answers, and say that what it would apply to depends on the purpose for referencing the type.

If you're talking about magic (Protection from Evil spells, Bane weapons, and the like), in standard D&D magic seems able to interact with a creature's moral and ethical karmic balances. The long-term sum of actions leaves a "residue" upon a creature that interacts with some magics.

In this way, creatures that are "neutral" in the sense that they have no committment either way to Law or Chaos have no noticble amount of this "residue". One might posit that a outsider that is committed to specifically maintianing balance between Law and Chaos might have yet another type of residue. In this case, if it exists at all, the Outsider(Neutral) type would choose out only those Neutral outsiders who are specifically acting to create balance, as opposed to those who don't give a hoot.

However, if you're talking about the Ranger's Favored Enemies bonus, I think you're talking about a different kettle of fish. The Favored Enemy bonus is based upon study of behavior and physiology. The ranger picks these by type, implying one of two things: 1)All creatures of a given type (or sub-type) have similarities of behavior and physiology, or 2)the character is assumed to have studied the details of an unrelated group of critters for some reason.

If (2) were true, then there's no real reason to stick to DMG types, except for convenience. The player could just as easily choose some other theme, and say, "I have studies creatures X, Y, and Z, and wish to apply my FE bonuses to them."

If (1) is true, then the taxonomy of outsiders is... Well, a bit odd. I mean, the LE ones share traits with LG, and also with CE? But it's magic, so a bit of weirdness is okay.

But if all lawful outsiders have similarities, and all chaotic ones have similarities, it would stand to reason that ones Neutral with respect to those two would also have similarities. I'd then suppose you'd have two different classifications Outsider (ethically neutral) for Law/Chaos, and Outsider (morally neutral) for Good/Evil.

 

[CRGreathouse]

If you're talking about magic (Protection from Evil spells, Bane weapons, and the like)

Nope.

But if all lawful outsiders have similarities, and all chaotic ones have similarities, it would stand to reason that ones Neutral with respect to those two would also have similarities. I'd then suppose you'd have two different classifications Outsider (ethically neutral) for Law/Chaos, and Outsider (morally neutral) for Good/Evil.

I think this is the best answer yet.