Ranger's Dire Wolverine Strike w/ differing weapon damage

[Syrsuro]

I came across this question the other day:

Dire Wolverine Strike (Ranger Level 1 Encounter) targets each enemy in a close burst 1, and does 1[W]+Strength modifier damage to each one hit (Str. vs. AC), and (more importantly) it requires the ranger to be wielding two melee weapons.

My question is: Which hand's weapon is used for the [W]?

In other words, if he is holding a battleaxe in his main hand and a handaxe in his off hand, which one is used for the attack?

1) If all attacks are made with the main hand, what is the point of the weapon in the off hand (and in that case could he just grab a chair leg for an improvised weapon or even call his fist the second weapon)? How does the other weapon figure into the calculation?

2) Can he split the attacks up? Could he, for example, use the battleaxe against one target and use the handaxe against a different target? (Don't ask why he would want to, I can always find a reason - especially if one or the other is enchanted. The question is, could he?).

Carl

 

[inati]

Based on the entry under melee attacks in PHB pg 270 which reads "If you hold two melee weapons, you can use either one to make a melee attack." I would say that a player could choose either weapon to make an attack against each target, as long as you apply the right attack modifier and property for that weapon.
The General rule is choose either of the two, and that was not changed in the exploit description.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The General rule is choose either of the two, and that was not changed in the exploit description.

But the general rule you refer to is for melee attacks, and Dire Wolverine Strike is not a melee attack; it is a close attack.

The rule for Close Attacks is "When you make a close attack, you make a separate attack roll against each target in the area of effect, but you make a single damage roll that affects all the targets."

Since you're only making a single damage roll, obviously you can't use a d6 for one creature and a d8 for another creature, even if one of your weapons deals d6 and the other deals d8. Pick one, roll once, apply that damage to all targets you hit.

-Hyp.

 

[jaelis]

The one damage roll rule does run into trouble, though, with powers like Blinding Barrage. That is a close attack that can be used with thrown weapons, and according to pg 271, you need one weapon for each target attacked. So what if you have one dagger and a bunch of shuriken? Either you need separate damage rolls, or you need to assume an unwritten rule that all the thrown weapons are required to be the same type.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Either you need separate damage rolls...

Not valid, per the paragraph immediately preceding the one-weapon-per-target requirement.

... or you need to assume an unwritten rule that all the thrown weapons are required to be the same type.

There's a third possibility: 1[W] is based on the damage die of the weapon you use to satisfy the "wielding a light thrown weapon" requirement - that is, the first one you throw. Even if the other weapons you throw have a different damage die, it's irrelevant, since the power uses a single damage roll.

As far as I can tell, Dire Wolverine Strike, Sweeping Whirlwind, Swirling Leaves of Steel, and Cheetah's Rake are all similar - a close burst that uses a single damage roll, despite its 'two melee weapons' requirement.

If you want the damage bonus from the TWF feat, you need to be wielding two weapons, even though the damage die of the off-hand weapon is never referenced. If you want to use Dire Wolverine Strike, you need to be wielding two weapons, even though the damage die of one of them is never referenced.

-Hyp.

 

[Syrsuro]

Ok, my assumption was that they use their weapon of choice for all attacks and for the damage roll.

But doesn't this mean that a ranger who grabs a rock and calls it an 'improvised weapon' has satisfied the requirements for two melee weapons?

(And yes, I know that improvised weapons do not have the property "off-hand weapon". But rangers with two blade fighting style can treat a one-handed weapon as if it were an off hand weapon).

And if that is the case, what about using his fist? It's listed under "Improvised Melee Weapons" as well. Or a shield? It seems logical to me that he should be able to use a shield as an improvised weapon (giving up the defensive bonus until the next round, of course).

Or even his bow? Rather than put his bow away, he just uses his minor action to draw the melee weapon and attacks with it, calling the bow an improvised weapon in the off-hand and satisfying the requirement.

Since the only attack and damage rolls are based on the main hand, it seems irrelevant what is in his off hand.

Carl

 

[Hypersmurf]

Since the only attack and damage rolls are based on the main hand, it seems irrelevant what is in his off hand.

It keeps him from using Dire Wolverine Strike with a greatsword.

-Hyp.

 

[Syrsuro]

It keeps him from using Dire Wolverine Strike with a greatsword.

-Hyp.

Interesting point. So the important part of the rule may be that it prevents using a greatsword (or a versatile weapon two-handed). Definately a balance issue, although not necessarily the best way to enforce it.

So would you allow a character to use a one handed weapon and call their shield, bow or fist a melee weapon?

Carl

 

[Hypersmurf]

So would you allow a character to use a one handed weapon and call their shield, bow or fist a melee weapon?

I'd say no to the bow; the PHB is quite clear: "You can't use a ranged weapon as a melee weapon."

Similarly to the shield: "However, you can't use your shield hand to make attacks." I don't think I'd consider the shield to be a weapon, if it can't be used to make attacks.

Fist, I don't have an issue with. But I'd be disinclined to allow someone to point out that it refers to kicking as an improvised weapon as well, and call their greatsword-and-kick an answer to "You must be wielding two melee weapons".

-Hyp.

 

[chaotix42]

The one damage roll rule does run into trouble, though, with powers like Blinding Barrage. That is a close attack that can be used with thrown weapons, and according to pg 271, you need one weapon for each target attacked. So what if you have one dagger and a bunch of shuriken? Either you need separate damage rolls, or you need to assume an unwritten rule that all the thrown weapons are required to be the same type.

For what it's worth, the FAQ for the 4e PHB has this to say on this matter:

14. I am using a magical thrown weapon as part of an area of effect power. If I am attacking multiple enemies within that area, do I need multiple weapons, or will one suffice?

One is enough in this case. Magical thrown weapons return to you after each attack, so you’ll be able to use it against each enemy as part of using your power.