Ranger's Twin Strike ...

[UltimaGabe]

Monsters hit for more than 5 damage these days.

Not to de-rail the topic, but it seems you've missed the main effect of Toughness: It increases your Healing Surge value by 1 (or 2, 20% of the time) per tier. This, in my opinion, FAR exceeds the fact that it increases your maximum HP by 5. Saying, "Monsters hit for more than 5 damage these days," is probably the biggest understatement in regards to what Toughness does.

 

[Asmor]

Defensive Mobility archers don't get locked down in melee as easily as 'archers' who took toughness. Toughness doesn't do -anything- against the status effects that often accompany certain monsters' basic attacks. Defensive Mobility -does-.

You're missing some points.

1. You can still take defensive mobility.

2. There are items, e.g. Point Blank Weapon, which provide the same benefit, saving you a feat.

3. How often does a ranger actually take attacks of opportunity for making ranged attacks in the first place? Shifting will save you 80% of the time, shifting + nimble strike will save you another 10% of the time, and the ranger has plenty of attack or utility powers which let you shift more squares (e.g. Serpentine Dodge or the 1st level encounter attack power Evasive Strike) will save you a further 9% of the time.

If you're taking a lot of opportunity attacks in the first, you're doing something wrong.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It is a legitimate debate. A TWF ranger could simply take DM or vise versa, but the TWF ranger DOES get a class feature which can be quite powerful and which the archer ranger cannot ever get, vs the AFS ranger gets nothing like that in return.

Granted Toughness MAY not be all that ideal for an archer it is still not a bad feat to have, and you can just use your feat slot at 1st for DM. It means you can't use it for something else, but it isn't like that is going to put you drastically behind the curve. Prime Shot of course both get, technically, but the AFS will really be the one to be able to use it, though it is fairly rare that it comes up.

So basically go TWF unless you are pretty sure you are dedicated to pure archery and will be pretty much dumping on STR, in which case AFS saves you a feat slot. Seems like the majority of people go with TWF, but it is really not as major a choice as it first seems.

 

[DracoSuave]

You're missing some points.

1. You can still take defensive mobility.

You can still take Toughness.

2. There are items, e.g. Point Blank Weapon, which provide the same benefit, saving you a feat.

You can take an item that gives you bonus hit points.

3. How often does a ranger actually take attacks of opportunity for making ranged attacks in the first place? Shifting will save you 80% of the time, shifting + nimble strike will save you another 10% of the time, and the ranger has plenty of attack or utility powers which let you shift more squares (e.g. Serpentine Dodge or the 1st level encounter attack power Evasive Strike) will save you a further 9% of the time.

If you're taking a lot of opportunity attacks in the first, you're doing something wrong.

That's true, if you're taking a -lot-. But you don't need to take a lot for Defensive Mobility to be useful- You only need to take -one-.

But the same argument in reverse. The two-weapon-fighting bonus is an -excellent- advantage, should you find yourself in a situation with two weapons and in each hand. But the archery ranger doesn't find himself in -that- situation either.

And not all archers take shift-and-pew-pew powers (tho they are good options to be sure.) For those that take the non-shifty big-heavy-damage-PEW-PEW powers, Defensive Mobility is still better than Toughness.

As well, DM opens up the option of drawing OAs so your fighter gets a free CC attack now and then. Toughness opens up the option of taking five more damage. Which, again, drop in the bucket.

I don't think the situation is as 'obvious' as people think it is. 5 hitpoints is an extra what to your surge value? 1 point? 2 at best? Sure it gets better at higher tiers, but so much that it becomes must have for a ranged character?

If you're going ranged, your defenses are of the DO NOT HIT ME variety, not the HIT ME LESS HARD variety. Avoidance, rather then Mitigation. And Defensive Mobility increases your Avoidance while you run-and-gun, while Mitigation does not protect you against your bane.

Toughness does NOTHING against Soldier monsters, which are the weakness of a ranged Striker. Defensive Mobility does. And that's the -real- bottom line.


In pure comparison, yes both builds get Prime Shot, but archery rangers will actually use it, whereas twf rangers will not. In converse, twf rangers NEED the two-weapon advantage to be competitive with archery rangers in the damage area, but archery rangers don't need to TWF in order to do damage; TWF+Superior weapon=Archery Ranger+martial weapon.

You -can't- look at it as strict 'So and So gets X class features and So and So gets Y so X > Y' when you look at the sum of the parts.

Bottom line, if you take TWF, you're taking an extra feat to be equivalent to archery rangers in the damage catagory, either by taking Defensive Mobility to be as mobile as an archer just to get that 'useful' two-weapon fighting advantage, or you're taking a Superior Weapon feat just to get the same damage output.

It is -definately- not a wash when you look at all parts put together.

 

[Klaus]

IMHO, Ranger powers ought to be done like every other class' is: baseline effect, plus an additional something if you're of a certain build.

 

[Mad Hamish]

Comparing the Archer Build versus the other builds for features a lot of it depends on how you play it.
pros of Archer Build -> Battlefield Archer paragon path, I think it's still the best paragon path option for an archer ranger.
-> if you move up into melee range to provide flanking or take the heat of other characters the boost to AC versus opportunity attacks is a good thing. Also true for when you can't move or are completely surrounded.

pros of two weapon build
-> toughness. additional hp are nice and the +1/2/3 to healing surge values aren't to be sneezed at. Against that as an archer ranger you can reduce damage you take by keeping back and up close the additional AC versus opportunity attacks may end up being more use.
-> ability to wield larger weapons in the off-hand. Really it doesn't come into anything as a dedicated archer. You aren't in hth often enough to worry about and if you are your str is going to be low enough that you're extremely unlikely to hit.

Beastmaster Ranger
-> Ability to quarry off your companion
-> additional target for enemies to attack
-> provide flanking for allies
-> somewhat of a meat shield (depends on the animal obviously)

may well make up for losing prime shot if you aren't intending to go Battlefield Archer.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Anyway, I am going to go check the temperature in Hell now.

Don't take Bell's Bootlegged Icewater, LLP into Chapter 11 just yet, Ian. We're giving 4E a try in the interests of fairness. I think it's pretty safe to say that we'll be sticking with 3.5 (well, Pathfinder) for the vast majority of our D&D in the future. We're enjoying 4E, but it's not knocking anybody's socks off.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

FYI, I asked my DM to let me rebuild as a two-blade ranger (who just happens to mostly use a longbow), because we're a striker-heavy group (four strikers!) with no defenders. I figure I will get cornered somewhat often, Nimble Strike and Evasive Strike notwithstanding.