Ok, I'll shoot. The only way a cleric can be better than a fighter is if it spends several rounds buffing either immediatly before or in battle. That is a major disadvangtage and is often times temporary. The spell list is good for the buffs, but lacks the combat utility of the wiz/sorcs. Hmmm...what else. While alot of its buffs spells have more immediate oomph than that of the bard, the bard can buff in combat without sacraficing the ability to attack or even cast spells (given the minimum duration of bardic music and the small number of rounds most combats take). It is a versatile class, but one has to remember the concept of oppurtunity cost when factoring in large numbers of abilities; what often looks significant on paper might never or rarely be used ingame.
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Rank the D&D 3.5 classes!
- Thread starter greymarch
- Start date
TalonComics
First Post
PA said:
Not to mention I play a Dwarven Cleric so it's a given I have "LGMF" stitched on my wallet.
~D
Wow! I posted this thread yesterday afternoon, and didnt get any immediate responses, so I figured it had died out. I am glad some people have started to post their rankings.
I also posted this exact same question at the official WoTC boards. I have received a tremendous response over there, and have started to tally the votes. I will add the votes from this message thread to my tallies. I will post the averages in a few minutes...just give me a little time, hehe.
Here is the link to the thread at the official messageboards:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=842385#post842385
I also posted this exact same question at the official WoTC boards. I have received a tremendous response over there, and have started to tally the votes. I will add the votes from this message thread to my tallies. I will post the averages in a few minutes...just give me a little time, hehe.
Here is the link to the thread at the official messageboards:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=842385#post842385
KnowTheToe
First Post
First off, I love this thread.
I notice the sorcerer bounces all over the lists. How many of you have actually player a sorcerer. I never have for many of the reasons listed, but maybe it is a better class in application than it appears on paper. I do not yet have my 3.5 books and cannot comment on power levels.
I notice the sorcerer bounces all over the lists. How many of you have actually player a sorcerer. I never have for many of the reasons listed, but maybe it is a better class in application than it appears on paper. I do not yet have my 3.5 books and cannot comment on power levels.
I added the responses from this thread to the responses I have received from the WoTC message thread. We are now over 30 responses! I only added your rankings if you ranked all 11 classes, and only if you ranked them by power. Here are the averages. Remember, the lower the average, the more powerful everyone thinks the class is:
1. Cleric - 2.69
2. Wizard - 3.10
3. Druid - 3.79
4. Sorcerer - 5.66
5. Rogue - 5.76
6. Barbarian - 6.00
7. Ranger - 6.69
8. Fighter - 6.72
9. Paladin - 7.62
10. Monk - 7.97
11. Bard - 9.97
If you would like the actual spreadsheet, you can email me at greymarch@yahoo.com. I am keeping all the scores with the names of the people who posted the scores, on the spreadsheet.
1. Cleric - 2.69
2. Wizard - 3.10
3. Druid - 3.79
4. Sorcerer - 5.66
5. Rogue - 5.76
6. Barbarian - 6.00
7. Ranger - 6.69
8. Fighter - 6.72
9. Paladin - 7.62
10. Monk - 7.97
11. Bard - 9.97
If you would like the actual spreadsheet, you can email me at greymarch@yahoo.com. I am keeping all the scores with the names of the people who posted the scores, on the spreadsheet.
Simulacrum
First Post
1.Fighter: Especialy when played clever and mixed with a few levels of Monk. It's fun to create nearly unbeatable fighters with high *stay* factor. Invest your feats clever! ---> the whole trick.
2.Monk: I love the class, especialy when combined with Fighter or just about anything else. People who think Monks are not D&D like because they are not *medival europe* are dumb.
D&D is fantasy and not medival europe. Medival europe was boring and completely killed fantasy and romantism.
I like fantasy *eastern mysticism* style!
3. Wizard. Just classic what can I say?
4. Cleric. I think the concept of the cleric is weird after all. yet its an awesome class. I dont agree with clerics being the best class.
They are when the campaigns and DM's let them be.
In a challenging *realistic* campaign clerics arent necesserily the best class.
5. Sorc. DM's best friend for a spellcaster opponent when you just feel like using one! Far more fun as monster etc....
6. Rogue. I love this class. It takes alot to play them properly. Yet it seem like everyone tries to get those rings of blinking (or similar stuff) as fast as they can.
7. Barbrain. I like the 3.5 version of it. If you wanna lay waste of anything that comes your way, take the feat carmic strike from OA
and make sure to max out your HP!
8. Paladin + Bard. I never use them.....
2.Monk: I love the class, especialy when combined with Fighter or just about anything else. People who think Monks are not D&D like because they are not *medival europe* are dumb.
D&D is fantasy and not medival europe. Medival europe was boring and completely killed fantasy and romantism.
I like fantasy *eastern mysticism* style!
3. Wizard. Just classic what can I say?
4. Cleric. I think the concept of the cleric is weird after all. yet its an awesome class. I dont agree with clerics being the best class.
They are when the campaigns and DM's let them be.
In a challenging *realistic* campaign clerics arent necesserily the best class.
5. Sorc. DM's best friend for a spellcaster opponent when you just feel like using one! Far more fun as monster etc....
6. Rogue. I love this class. It takes alot to play them properly. Yet it seem like everyone tries to get those rings of blinking (or similar stuff) as fast as they can.
7. Barbrain. I like the 3.5 version of it. If you wanna lay waste of anything that comes your way, take the feat carmic strike from OA
and make sure to max out your HP!
8. Paladin + Bard. I never use them.....
JoeGKushner
Adventurer
Fighters: Mainstream, main combat all around action bad boys.
Wizards: Death to play at low levels but the cool factor is much better at 5th and higher. Sure, clerics have many advantages but wizards have so many spells available to them via 3rd party support that by the time the cleric gets his miracle spell, no one cares.
Rogues: Traps, traps and more traps are there for the rogue to take care of.
Cleric: An essentail part to any party for his healing and fighting abilities but he's still a band aid.
Barbarian-Ranger-Paladin-Monk-Bard: All have their place but to me, I'm still thinking of the first four as fighters with some variants and the bard as the poor cousin whose kinda cool when used by that guy who does things a little different.
Wizards: Death to play at low levels but the cool factor is much better at 5th and higher. Sure, clerics have many advantages but wizards have so many spells available to them via 3rd party support that by the time the cleric gets his miracle spell, no one cares.
Rogues: Traps, traps and more traps are there for the rogue to take care of.
Cleric: An essentail part to any party for his healing and fighting abilities but he's still a band aid.
Barbarian-Ranger-Paladin-Monk-Bard: All have their place but to me, I'm still thinking of the first four as fighters with some variants and the bard as the poor cousin whose kinda cool when used by that guy who does things a little different.
seasong
First Post
Top Four, Neck-and-Neck
1. Fighter. The important part of being a fighter, is that you figure out what the other guy is good at, and then you do something else in that particular combat. Magic items should be selected to give you ways around the more annoying things (like wall of force), or you could go for an antimagic field build, but basically, you shoot arrows at the melee monsters, and you close in for the kill on ranged death masters - no other class can do BOTH as well as a fighter, they always have to specialize in one or the other. Fighters also do very well at mounted combat, which makes them Death Incarnate as far as I'm concerned - even a monk has problems touching that bidness.
2. Wizard. Although a properly built fighter can take a wizard apart, same as anyone, a properly prepared wizard can kill just about anything else without using up too many spell slots. Not to mention scrolls, wands, and quicken spell. Heck, a wand specialist wizard can even wear armor.
3. Bard. Hate to be the naysayer here, but at 6th level and up, the bard starts to get really scary. Leadership + Inspire Courage + skills at the supporting role makes the bard the hands-down best kicker of booty. The change to an illusionist role hasn't hurt the warfare aspect, either.
4. Cleric. To be honest, the cleric is 4th by a narrow margin, since he's about 2nd best at the above three. Some people will argue that the cleric can out-melee the fighter, but that's only with preparation... and that preparation makes him less able to deal with a fighter who switches to range. The cleric can wear armor and cast spells, which makes him seem better than the wizard... except that the spells aren't that great, and wizards have armor spells. The cleric might outdo the bard at the warfare angle, but the new Inspire Courage is damned hard to argue with.
Middle Four, all pretty good
5. Barbarian. A melee fighter with comparatively marginal missile capabilities, the barbarian is beaten out by the cleric (who can also wear better armor).
6. Rogue. They have a good niche, and they do well in it, but without someone else to help flank, the rogue's combat role is vastly diminished. And even getting flanking bonuses with a comrade can be surprisingly difficult. The halfling rogue, however, built for defensive capabilities, and granted improved invisibility, is capable of frightening damage output... until he gets caught.
7. Ranger. In his specialty, the ranger will be pretty good. Like the barbarian, however, he gets beaten out by the cleric (who can also wear better armor) and is somewhat marginal outside of his specialty. Rangers can at least do cool stuff, though.
8. Druid. Nice general abilities, but still second place to the cleric, who does what the druid does, better.
Not So Good
9. Monk. The monk's role in combat is a bit too subtle for most, but he can be an absolute master of unusual tactics such as grappling, tripping, targetting spell casters, and so on. He sucks at long ranges, however, and doesn't do too well in pure melee, either.
10. Paladin. He's pretty cool, and with some good PrCs, can be spectacular for one or two hits, but ultimately, the paladin just isn't that great.
11. Sorcerer. As written, he's a weak wizard. He gets a few more spells per day, but gets nothin' for spell selection. It's like a wizard, only with the one real strength taken away.
1. Fighter. The important part of being a fighter, is that you figure out what the other guy is good at, and then you do something else in that particular combat. Magic items should be selected to give you ways around the more annoying things (like wall of force), or you could go for an antimagic field build, but basically, you shoot arrows at the melee monsters, and you close in for the kill on ranged death masters - no other class can do BOTH as well as a fighter, they always have to specialize in one or the other. Fighters also do very well at mounted combat, which makes them Death Incarnate as far as I'm concerned - even a monk has problems touching that bidness.
2. Wizard. Although a properly built fighter can take a wizard apart, same as anyone, a properly prepared wizard can kill just about anything else without using up too many spell slots. Not to mention scrolls, wands, and quicken spell. Heck, a wand specialist wizard can even wear armor.
3. Bard. Hate to be the naysayer here, but at 6th level and up, the bard starts to get really scary. Leadership + Inspire Courage + skills at the supporting role makes the bard the hands-down best kicker of booty. The change to an illusionist role hasn't hurt the warfare aspect, either.
4. Cleric. To be honest, the cleric is 4th by a narrow margin, since he's about 2nd best at the above three. Some people will argue that the cleric can out-melee the fighter, but that's only with preparation... and that preparation makes him less able to deal with a fighter who switches to range. The cleric can wear armor and cast spells, which makes him seem better than the wizard... except that the spells aren't that great, and wizards have armor spells. The cleric might outdo the bard at the warfare angle, but the new Inspire Courage is damned hard to argue with.
Middle Four, all pretty good
5. Barbarian. A melee fighter with comparatively marginal missile capabilities, the barbarian is beaten out by the cleric (who can also wear better armor).
6. Rogue. They have a good niche, and they do well in it, but without someone else to help flank, the rogue's combat role is vastly diminished. And even getting flanking bonuses with a comrade can be surprisingly difficult. The halfling rogue, however, built for defensive capabilities, and granted improved invisibility, is capable of frightening damage output... until he gets caught.
7. Ranger. In his specialty, the ranger will be pretty good. Like the barbarian, however, he gets beaten out by the cleric (who can also wear better armor) and is somewhat marginal outside of his specialty. Rangers can at least do cool stuff, though.
8. Druid. Nice general abilities, but still second place to the cleric, who does what the druid does, better.
Not So Good
9. Monk. The monk's role in combat is a bit too subtle for most, but he can be an absolute master of unusual tactics such as grappling, tripping, targetting spell casters, and so on. He sucks at long ranges, however, and doesn't do too well in pure melee, either.
10. Paladin. He's pretty cool, and with some good PrCs, can be spectacular for one or two hits, but ultimately, the paladin just isn't that great.
11. Sorcerer. As written, he's a weak wizard. He gets a few more spells per day, but gets nothin' for spell selection. It's like a wizard, only with the one real strength taken away.
