This is true too. I have some old farts in my group that won't play psionics at all...
Rank the D&D 3.5 classes!
- Thread starter greymarch
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James Gasik
We don't talk about Pun-Pun
And let's not forget that your level 9 powers, while strong, might not be as ridiculous as whatever spell the Cleric or Wizard produces from their ever-expanding spell list...
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
Yep. Another point of confusion for them were the variable psionic powers where I could add points to alter the power. They were like, "That's 4 powers in one!" and I was like, "But I pick fewer than a Wizard who ends up with a greater variety of spells memorized!"
I believe strongly that it is the DM's responsibility to manage the campain to challenge what may be perceived as out of balance. The DM should therefore place challenges in the campaign that force the players to carefully consider the budget of their points.
James Gasik
We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Well yeah, obviously, you want to avoid the 5-minute workday. But at the highest levels, it becomes more that you don't tell the players what adventures they are going on, they tell you. With the ability to teleport, plane shift, jump into an extradimensional mansion, or even pop off to one's own private demiplane where they control the flow of time, running a high level spellcaster out of resources requires pretty much ad hoc cheating via a deus ex machina.
When you can use powerful Divinations to know what your target is doing, then materialize a fully buffed part of adventurers into their bedroom, the game turns into an all out wizard war, and the DM quickly gets locked into an arms race to constantly try to challenge characters who can create armies of Shadesteel Golems, Simulacrum Artificers to craft any magic items they wish to have, and Infinite Wishes to pay for it all.
When you can use powerful Divinations to know what your target is doing, then materialize a fully buffed part of adventurers into their bedroom, the game turns into an all out wizard war, and the DM quickly gets locked into an arms race to constantly try to challenge characters who can create armies of Shadesteel Golems, Simulacrum Artificers to craft any magic items they wish to have, and Infinite Wishes to pay for it all.
James Gasik
We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Yes but, a tier list can help a DM who has yet to see this sort of thing in action to realize which classes need to be helped along, and which ones need to be challenged more.
Of course, the problem with simply turning up the difficulty dial is that you can end up punishing the classes that can't compete, like the poor Rogue, whose main combat ability a good 40% of all monsters seem to be immune to (and the only cure is, of course, magic).
Unless you're willing to house rule the game to the point you might as well not even use the rulebooks, of course. Because what DM doesn't have a 12-page document of house rules? : )
Yep. High level campaigns are tough to dm, for sure. But it depends on the group. The DM could introduce a competing party that seems to get the loot first, each a designed antihero, or perhaps a betrayal of a trusted ally or safe place... I just think that the DM has to remain as interested in the challenge as the players.. and of course the need to pander to the exceptional.. but however it happens, the DM needs to maintain the risk of failure.
Of course, that rogue should probably have multiclassed and prestiged out of pocket picking a long time ago
If a campaign starts at a high level... I have a group that always starts at 10... then I think it might take some trial and error to balance the challenges. But if the group started at 1 together, then the DM should have a pretty good idea of what they do and where they succeed and fail.
Again, it comes down to the group.
Again, it comes down to the group.
