D&D (2024) Ranking the Weapon Mastery

[Neonchameleon]

However, this is one of the issues I have with Vex, since its on the rapier (which is basically THE go to weapon for melee dex users), its not like you have a lot of flexibility in switching it out. Sure if your fighting a lot of weaker creatures vex is probably not very good, and you would love to switch to something else.... but what..... a dagger?

It's not just that it's on the rapier, but that it's also on the hand crossbow which is the high rate of fire weapon.

 

[Stalker0]

Rechecking the Vex math. Also including crits.

Assume a 1d8 weapon with +4 Dex, for 8.5 nominal average damage per hit. A crit will add 4.5 damage.

Average damage at a 60% hit rate with no advantage is 60% * 8.5 + 5% * 4.5 = 5.325

Average damage of a hit made without advantage is 8.5 + 5% * 4.5 = 8.725

Average damage of a hit made with advantage is 8.5 + 9.75% * 4.5 = 8.939

1.67 attacks to land the first hit, and an average of 4 hits made with advantage gives a 5.67 attack window.

Unmodified damage over that range is 5.67 * 5.325 = 30.193

Vex damage over that range is 8.725 + 4 * 8.939 = 44.48

This means a 47% increase in damage.

A quick check with other die values shows basically the same gain.

Checking at 70% hit rate:

Average damage at a 70% hit rate with no advantage is 70% * 8.5 + 5% * 4.5 = 6.175

8.4 attacks * 6.175 = 51.87

Vex damage over that range: 8.725 + 7 * 8.939 = 71.298

Improvement: +37%


Note: The above are not actually true averages because it's only covering about 50% of all attack scenarios. The other 50% will be lower. Long term average is likely to be +32% and +26% for 60% and 70% accuracy, respectively. Of course in situations where advantage is magnified (such as a barbarian crit fisher) or a rogue (assuming rogue's will get vex....which they probably will), then its a good bit stronger.

OK, Vex is providing more improvement than Graze, though less than immediately obvious because the math actually gets rather complicated when you include all scenarios.

So thinking about this more, I think this is a little too white room.

Again, if we factor in the ideas that you have to hit the same monster and the monster has to live, just doing a pure attack average over many attacks just feels wrong.

Instead I am going to assume 4 attacks (2 attacks per round over 2 rounds). Since most combats last 3 rounds, we are assuming that the attacker is hitting the same creature for two full rounds, which I think is reasonable in the context of many fights). We assume no advantage on the first attack, and then play out advantage on the others based on the hits to see how it goes.

Running the numbers that way (I am using a million run simulation so its not perfect theory but should be close).

Without Vex (assuming a 60% hit, 5% crit chance on the base attack)
Hit: 60%
Crit: 5%
Damage: .6 * 8.5 + .05 * 13 = 5.75

With Vex
Hit: 70%
Crit: 7.7%
Damage: .7 * 8.5 + .077 * 13 = 6.951

Overall Improvement: (6.951 - 5.75) / 5.75 = 20.9% increase

Now that actually doesn't look like a big increase at all, in fact....lets just Flex for a second.

No Flex:
.6 * 8.5 + .05 * 13 = 5.75

With Flex
.6 * 9.5 + .05 * 15 = 6.45

Flex: 6.45 - 5.75 / 5.75 = 12.2% increase.


So Vex is better, but honestly not THAT much better, especially if you factor in times where Vex has no benefit, for flex is always working.

 

[Kinematics]

Trying one more time to work out the Vex math. Going to brute force it instead of relying on math tricks, which I seem to be screwing up.

Let's start from the first swing without advantage. How does Vex progress from that?

Base damage: 4.5 (1d8) + 4 (Dex) = 8.5 + 5% * 4.5 = 8.725
Adv damage: 4.5 (1d8) + 4 (Dex) = 8.5 + 9.75% * 4.5 = 8.939

EDIT: Argh. OK, the crit damage calculations aren't done correctly when the accuracy is applied in the table below, rather than in the equation above. However the difference is like 0.1 damage, and won't be relevant to the final answer, so I'm not going to mess with it further.

The table is the chance the previous hit landed times the chance that the hit landed with advantage (higher damage due to higher crit chance) plus the chance the previous hit missed times the chance that a baseline attack will land. Anything else is a miss and doesn't contribute.

0: ~ 60% * 8.725 + ~ 40% * 0 = 5.235
1: 60.0% * 84% * 8.939 + 40.0% * 60% * 8.725 = 6.599
2: 74.4% * 84% * 8.939 + 25.6% * 60% * 8.725 = 6.927
3: 77.9% * 84% * 8.939 + 22.1% * 60% * 8.725 = 7.006
4: 78.7% * 84% * 8.939 + 21.3% * 60% * 8.725 = 7.024
5: 78.9% * 84% * 8.939 + 21.1% * 60% * 8.725 = 7.024
6: 78.9% * 84% * 8.939 + 21.1% * 60% * 8.725 = 7.024

At this point the math is stable, where the chance to have advantage in the next round is the same as the previous round. It reaches a long-term average damage per hit of 7.02, compared to the base average of 5.235 per attack, which is a 34% gain if you can maintain that streak on a single mob.

On the other hand, if you kill a mob in, say, four hits, your overall damage boost is about 23% before it resets back to baseline.

Checking at 70% base accuracy.

0: ~ 70% * 8.725 + ~ 30% * 0 = 6.108
1: 70.0% * 91% * 8.939 + 30.0% * 70% * 8.725 = 7.526
2: 84.7% * 91% * 8.939 + 15.3% * 70% * 8.725 = 7.824
3: 87.8% * 91% * 8.939 + 12.2% * 70% * 8.725 = 7.887
4: 88.4% * 91% * 8.939 + 11.6% * 70% * 8.725 = 7.899
5: 88.6% * 91% * 8.939 + 11.4% * 70% * 8.725 = 7.903
6: 88.6% * 91% * 8.939 + 11.4% * 70% * 8.725 = 7.903

Again we've reached a stable point, with a Vex average damage of 7.9 compared to the baseline 6.1, for a 29% gain.

If you kill a mob in four hits and have to reset, your effective gain is about 20%.


If advantage is particularly useful to you (for example, a melee rogue wanting sneak attack on a mob he's fighting solo), it's obviously far better than the numbers suggest. If you just want it for better accuracy, and you can kill the mobs in a few hits, it's giving you about the same benefit as Graze (around 20%). For a longer fight against a boss mob, it will provide a better benefit than something like Graze.

 

[Stalker0]

If advantage is particularly useful to you (for example, a melee rogue wanting sneak attack on a mob he's fighting solo), it's obviously far better than the numbers suggest. If you just want it for better accuracy, and you can kill the mobs in a few hits, it's giving you about the same benefit as Graze (around 20%). For a longer fight against a boss mob, it will provide a better benefit than something like Graze.

Likewise if you have other ways of getting advantage (a character that likes to prone things, or a barbarian that can do it at will) or you are facing threats that often will die in a round (so you get in only 1-2 hits) Vex is a lot weaker than baseline.

Your numbers do look close to mine above when I was considering 4 attacks, so looks like we are in sync there.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Nick isn't actually much use for single classed paladins because they have so little to do with their bonus actions. It's part of why the Paladin/Spear/PAM is OP under the current rules.

That's true to a point -- some won't have a use for bonus actions. My point was rather the limit on smites to 1/turn means that any extra attack increases the chance of being able to Smite (or use Hex [which has a similar limit] or Hunter's Mark [which, I expect, will as well]).

 

[mellored]

This isn't an either or... You do both. Unless I am missing something, this seems to be the optimal turn.

level 5 fighter, with dual wielder and polearm master feats (level 8 for barbarian). Taking battleaxe, scimitar, halberd, and a ranged option as your weapons.

-Draw 2 weapon with Dual Wielder
1st attack with a battleaxe (counts as a light weapon).
-possibly topple for advantage

Nick with scimitar
--stow 2 weapon with Dual Wielder

-Draw a Halberd
2nd Attack with Halberd

Cleave
* at level 13, add graze.

Bonus action PAM
* at level 13, add graze.

Possible reaction attack.


Turn 2, you can reserve the order.
At level 11, do polearm, Dual, then back to polearm so you get more reaction attacks.

You also roll
1d4+1d6+1d8+2d10. So almost all the dice.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

This is something. Problem with Versatile is that is basically a non-property. No one uses it in 99% of the time. It's a desperate mechanic, like, here have something if you are unable to get a shield or a proper 2Handed weapon.
And in damage terms, it is valued as finesse, a property that gives you option to use pick better of two stats for combat.

If I were an army quartermaster, I would only order rapiers en masse, that would surely cut cost in bulk purchase, only have one set of scabbards as for sword and board fighters, rangers, barbarians or paladins(unless some corner case of piercing resistance) it's completely the same having rapier or battleax, sword, hammer.
And it can be used also for the best by rogues, bards or dex rangers.

longsword, battleaxe and similar weapons need d10(V d12).

I think d8 (Vd12).
Using something in 2 hands just needs to up the damage by an average of +2.