D&D (2024) Ranking the Weapon Mastery

[Stalker0]

Cleave is actually weaker than you think because

1. You need 2 enemies in reach. Something you have no control over
2. Spreading damage is VERY weak once enemies have more that 10 HP.

Unless your DM is using orcs, goblins, and other CR 1/2s for 20 levels, cleave is very meh or bad.

To me cleave is one of the best examples of the new properties, in that its an ideal weapon to swap into when you need it. Sure a lot of the time I don't need cleave, which is fine I won't use the greataxe. Oh its a hoard, now the axe comes out, time to go to work!

As for Graze, I think people underestimate the flavor of always doing damage. Automatic damage FEELS really good, even if mechanically its not that great. People like to be able to do damage no matter what.

 

[Neonchameleon]

1. Obviously it's situational when it comes up, but you'll use it every time you can. It's similar to Nick in the this regard, which I only rated lower because TWF is generally weaker.
2. How is this "spreading damage?" You are doing the same amount of damage to the original target while dealing damage to an additional target. You continue to focus fire on the original target, but afterwards its dead you have a new target for your focus fire that's already taken damage.

The only damage points that truly matter are the final ones to bring someone down. Until then they are still hitting you back. As a rule of thumb in a lot of analysis damage on a secondary target is estimated as worth about half the amount damage on a primary target is.

 

[Kinematics]

EDIT: The math is wrong. See later post for proper Vex numbers.


How much are Vex and Graze really worth?

Without Vex, you will make every attack at your base hit rate. I'll assume 60%.

If your average damage per hit is 10, then you're doing, on average, 6 damage per attack.

With advantage, 60% becomes 84% (a 40% increase). While advantage is up, you're doing 8.4 damage per attack.

How many attacks will Vex last?

With a 60% hit rate, it will take an average of 1.67 attacks to land the first hit. With an 84% hit rate, you will land an average of 4 attacks before you miss.

Total damage is 1 x 6 + 4 x 8.4 = 39.6 over 5.67 attacks, for an average of 7 damage per attack.

Long term gain, assuming you don't switch targets, is thus +17%.

For comparison, Graze.

With just +3 Str on a 1d10 weapon, your normal average damage is 8.5. A 60% hit rate would thus give an overall damage per attack of 5.1. With Graze, you will also gain 40% of 3, or 1.2 average damage. That's a 24% increase in average damage. At +4 Str that increases to an average of +28%, and +5 Str gives an average of +32%.

Other riders on attack damage, such as Rage bonus damage or extra fire damage per attack, will reduce the value of Graze.


Comparing again at 65%:

Vex: Advantage is worth +35% damage. It will take 1.5 turns to land, and last an average of 5 attacks. That's an overall damage increase of 19%.

Graze: +3/+4/+5 Str with a 1d10 weapon at 65% hit rate will give an average damage per attack of 5.525/6.175/6.825, while Graze will contribute 1.05/1.4/1.75. Gain is +19%/+23%/+26%.


Comparing again at 70%:

Vex: Advantage is worth +30% damage. It will 1.4 turns to land, and last an average of 7 attacks. That's an overall damage increase of 20%.

Graze: +3/+4/+5 Str with a 1d10 weapon at 70% hit rate will give an average damage per attack of 5.95/6.65/7.35, while Graze will contribute 0.9/1.2/1.5. Gain is +15%/+18%/+20%.

Summary:

Broadly speaking, Vex and Graze are generating about the same average improvement to damage (somewhere around +20%). Graze becomes more valuable as accuracy drops, while Vex becomes slightly more valuable as accuracy increases. Graze also increases in value as your Str increases.

My new conclusion on Vex is that it's not overpowered, or even necessarily top-tier. My other math on Graze has led me to consider it a solid option when you don't have advantage, so now I'll consider Vex as being in the same mid-tier spot.

 

[Stalker0]

How much are Vex and Graze really worth?

Without Vex, you will make every attack at your base hit rate. I'll assume 60%.

If your average damage per hit is 10, then you're doing, on average, 6 damage per attack.

With advantage, 60% becomes 84% (a 40% increase). While advantage is up, you're doing 8.4 damage per attack.

Is this factoring in crits? Advantage doesn't just increase your to hit rate, it increases your crit rate from 5% to 9.75%

 

[Kinematics]

Is this factoring in crits? Advantage doesn't just increase your to hit rate, it increases your crit rate from 5% to 9.75%

Ah, no, not crits. Also, I might have done the math wrong. Rechecking from scratch.

 

[Kinematics]

Rechecking the Vex math. Also including crits.

Assume a 1d8 weapon with +4 Dex, for 8.5 nominal average damage per hit. A crit will add 4.5 damage.

Average damage at a 60% hit rate with no advantage is 60% * 8.5 + 5% * 4.5 = 5.325

Average damage of a hit made without advantage is 8.5 + 5% * 4.5 = 8.725

Average damage of a hit made with advantage is 8.5 + 9.75% * 4.5 = 8.939

1.67 attacks to land the first hit, and an average of 4 hits made with advantage gives a 5.67 attack window.

Unmodified damage over that range is 5.67 * 5.325 = 30.193

Vex damage over that range is 8.725 + 4 * 8.939 = 44.48

This means a 47% increase in damage.

A quick check with other die values shows basically the same gain.

Checking at 70% hit rate:

Average damage at a 70% hit rate with no advantage is 70% * 8.5 + 5% * 4.5 = 6.175

8.4 attacks * 6.175 = 51.87

Vex damage over that range: 8.725 + 7 * 8.939 = 71.298

Improvement: +37%


Note: The above are not actually true averages because it's only covering about 50% of all attack scenarios. The other 50% will be lower. Long term average is likely to be +32% and +26% for 60% and 70% accuracy, respectively.

OK, Vex is providing more improvement than Graze, though less than immediately obvious because the math actually gets rather complicated when you include all scenarios.

EDIT: Yeah, this is messed up as well.

 

[Kobold Stew]

There are additional variables, too. Vex is particularly good for Rogues, who don't need to work to get SA benefits next round. (Nick also moves to top tier for Rogues and I suspect also classes with bonus damage built in, such as Paladins, Rangers and Warlocks.)

 

[Neonchameleon]

There are additional variables, too. Vex is particularly good for Rogues, who don't need to work to get SA benefits next round. (Nick also moves to top tier for Rogues and I suspect also classes with bonus damage built in, such as Paladins, Rangers and Warlocks.)

Nick isn't actually much use for single classed paladins because they have so little to do with their bonus actions. It's part of why the Paladin/Spear/PAM is OP under the current rules.

 

[Minigiant]

Obviously it's situational when it comes up, but you'll use it every time you can. It's similar to Nick in the this regard, which I only rated lower because TWF is generally weaker.

You can move between Nick granted attacks.

You cannot move between Cleave granted attack.

How is this "spreading damage?" You are doing the same amount of damage to the original target while dealing damage to an additional target. You continue to focus fire on the original target, but afterwards its dead you have a new target for your focus fire that's already taken damage.

Damage to a secondary target is worth ess hat damage to a primary target since only damage that brings you down to 0 HP affects gameplay.

IE 15 damage to 1 giant with 100 HP is worth more than 10 damage to 2 giants with 100 HP each.

 

[Stalker0]

1.67 attacks to land the first hit, and an average of 4 hits made with advantage gives a 5.67 attack window.

So one factor that also weakens Vex, it only works on the same target you hit. In the scenarios where you kill the target (or the target is killed before you go again), you get no benefit from Vex.

Further, if you are able to get advantage through any other method (and there are lots of ways to do), Vex is also worthless.

However, this is one of the issues I have with Vex, since its on the rapier (which is basically THE go to weapon for melee dex users), its not like you have a lot of flexibility in switching it out. Sure if your fighting a lot of weaker creatures vex is probably not very good, and you would love to switch to something else.... but what..... a dagger?