[Rant] Armor as DR is bad !

[jester47]

jester,

How does DR fit into this outlook on hit points? From a quick read through, they seem to hae no place...

I answer that in paragraph 10. And you have picked up on exactly what I am saying. If you look at it in that way, or a similar way, you save yourself a lot of work. DR has no place in the normal hit/damage system when you look at it this way. DR simply remains somthing that exists as a special property of a creature or magic item.

It keeps you from Kludging the mechanic in search of realism. i.e. to hell with DR, its clucnky and makes you roll more. We don't need it as a regular mechanic because (looking at it the way I just proposed) makes it redundant.

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Another note:
I was also thinking about the heal skill in all this. The heal skill can help you recover your used up hit points faster. Basicly, when not treating a mortal wound, I would envision the skill used the same techniques that a spots trainer uses. One of these is knowing how to get your body to recover from strenuous activity faster. So it still makes sense.

Aaron.

 

[Al'Kelhar]

It keeps you from Kludging the mechanic in search of realism. i.e. to hell with DR, its clucnky and makes you roll more. We don't need it as a regular mechanic because (looking at it the way I just proposed) makes it redundant.

Aaron.

Yay Jester47! As I'd pointed out many postings ago, DR is the "added ingredient for extra flavour" of the D&D combat system. AC and hit points are fundamentals that describe the broad concept of the ability to withstand injury or damage. In purist sense, DR, hardness and energy resistance are superfluous to this existing system, as they can be represented by adjustments to AC and/or hit points. However, they do serve a useful purpose by making what would otherwise be overly complex procedures for adjusting AC and hit points against certain attacks relatively simple. But they are just that - a neat solution to an ever-present problem in fantasy combat, the effects of "unusual" attack forms. They don't purport to enhance "realism".

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[woodelf]

As a fight goes on, people get tired, their luck runs out, they take a few scrapes. When it all runs out, they recieve a mortal wound (drop to 0 or below).

For a while I was working on my EMT I. The thing is, I noticed (and monte wrote about this) that when people get hurt beyond a small broken bone or a heavily bleeding-but not deadly cut (simple injuries), they are ussually in danger of dying. If you have trouble moving after getting hurt you are probably on death's door. (the reference is intentional)

Actually, FBI, police, and military research all agree: when someone gets a meaningful wound, there are 3 possible outcomes:

• target is incapacitated
• target continues as if unwounded
• the injured body part is non-functional, but the target is otherwise unaffected

This is independent of the severity of the wound. And there does not seem to be any way to predict the outcome. Even a single person wounded in pretty much the same way multiple times (with recovery in between) may react differently. It's pretty easy to predict the difference between 2 & 3--either the body part works, or it doesn't--but predicting whether someone will fall into 1 or 2, or 1 or 3, is not practical. Oh, and this doesn't consider instantly-fatal wounds. You blow someone's head off, they stop. But short of that, some people fight on, unhindered, despite a fatal wound. Some people fight on when they should've died minutes ago. Others are completely incapacitated (unconscious, or curled up in a ball whimpering) by a hand wound.

So, in one sense, D&D's damage is realistic: what felled a character one time (high damage roll) does nothing a different time (low damage roll); and there is no such thing as being generally hindered--you're either fully functional, or out. But it utterly fails the realism test when it comes to single attacks (which should, likewise, be able to incapacitate). Lowering the Massive Damage Threshhold to 10, as CoC D20 does, addresses this somewhat. What would be neat *and* heroic would be to institute a system where wound severity isn't figured until after the fight is over. It'd be a bit tricky to do with a hit point system, but the basic technique is to record wounds during the fight, and somehow determine their fatality on the spot (maybe make a massive damage save: drop if you fail, no result if you succeed). Then, at the end of the fight, actually figure out how much damage was taken (so, perhaps re-classify all weapons/attacks into a few categories from "minor" to "incapacitating", or something like that, ranging in damage from d4 to 4d8, so you coul djust record "3 minor hits, 2 major hits, 1 severe, 1 incapacitating", or something of that sort--probably check boxes). Along with this, you'd want to change the definitions so that any negative hp total was "dying", so you wouldn't instantly die (that's what those massive damage saves were for) at the end of o fight, but you might drop and need healing.

 

[Krieg]

Actually, FBI, police, and military research all agree: when someone gets a meaningful wound, there are 3 possible outcomes:

• target is incapacitated
• target continues as if unwounded
• the injured body part is non-functional, but the target is otherwise unaffected

This is independent of the severity of the wound. And there does not seem to be any way to predict the outcome. Even a single person wounded in pretty much the same way multiple times (with recovery in between) may react differently. It's pretty easy to predict the difference between 2 & 3--either the body part works, or it doesn't--but predicting whether someone will fall into 1 or 2, or 1 or 3, is not practical. Oh, and this doesn't consider instantly-fatal wounds. You blow someone's head off, they stop. But short of that, some people fight on, unhindered, despite a fatal wound. Some people fight on when they should've died minutes ago. Others are completely incapacitated (unconscious, or curled up in a ball whimpering) by a hand wound.

Very well said.

Signifigant damage to the central nervous system (ie brain & spinal cord) and enough blood loss to cause unconsciousness are the only two reliable ways to incapacitate someone. Everything else is far too reliant on psychology rather than physiology.

 

[Jin]

My thoughts on this whole armor thing…

No system will ever be perfect. Use what makes you happy when you play. That’s what the game is all about.

We use an armor system that’s similar to some that have been posted so far. Armor grants not only AC & DR, but Fortification as well.

o AC is the same as it always has been on any given suit of armor.
o DR is usually about 1/3 to 1/2 of a suit’s AC - tops out at 4 / --.
o Fortification is only around in heavy armors - tops out at 15%.

AC should ONLY be a function of how hard a target is to hit. Plate armors were designed to deflect even the heaviest blows (AC) & then if they had to, help absorb them (DR). Hence soft leather armor isn’t truly viable unless studded, while hard leather is since it can actually deflect a blow due to its hardness after curing.

As to why I didn’t lower AC once DR was added - it was easier to just leave all the standard stats on armor as they were, as everyone would have the tables in whatever book they were looking at. And so far, nothing seems to be broken.

Some weapons, such as picks & crossbows, have a penetration value that lowers a target’s DR.

Materials will also ignore DR, or add to it if it’s used for armor, based on how hard they are vs. how hard the material they are striking is. (Still need to come up with some BS mechanic to generalize the hardness of “natural” DR.)

The other big beef folks seem to have is that plate armor should make someone slow & sluggish. It should only do this if it encumbers you. Armor doesn’t need a strength requirement to wear. (I would argue that heavy weapons do however.) Anyone don a suit of armor, just as any of us could strap on a frame pack with 70lbs of weight in it. Some of would be so encumbered by this we wouldn’t be able to stand. However, others would be able to not only walk around, but do so for a bit of time. So why add that mechanic when the rules already take care of it? Also, if you’ve ever worn a really heavy suit of some kind, it’s much easier to move around in than with a pack of the same weight due to the weight distribution.

Anyway, I’ve seen people doing repeated summersaults, leaping onto horses, running, & quickly scaling ladders in replica suits (not some ungainly SCA suit) of plate armor. Sure, they were a bit less coordinated than when in their plain clothes, but they still had a great range of movement. So, I think the Max Dex mechanic, while not perfect, will fit the bill. If anything, I think the heavy armors limit it too much, but that might skew the game too much in favor of heavily armored folks after the changes we’ve made, plus, if it’s not truly broken in some way, shy fix it?

We also use rules that use the fatigued & exhausted core conditions as a result of strenuous physical & mental activity. However, our also inflict 1/2 the standard penalty on Int & Wis as well. If you’ve ever been truly exhausted, you know that your logic & common sense don’t work so well at that point either. The more encumbered you are, the faster you wear out. Lightly armored folks won’t get as tired as quickly.

We also use a mechanic called Hardened AC. This determines how bad the secondary effects of a critical hit are in addition to the standard extra damage you take. It works similarly to Torn Asunder’s rules if you’ve ever seen them, but instead of using a generic increment of 5, the increment is your HAC. (Basically your flatfooted AC - 10.) Admittedly, a function of DR would have been better due to the distinction I made above, but even armor w/o DR should provide some protection from critical hits both realistically & for enjoyment purposes so lightly armored folks don’t get absolutely brutalized. Plus, then we would have had to add another stat to armor. Why not use something that’s already there?

So far it’s all working quite well. Yes, it’s a bit more complex & takes an extra 5 minutes per combat encounter, but being that we are higher mammals with math skills, we may as well use them for something.