RANT: Attacks of Opportunity

[jeffh]

There's a little thing in critical analysis call "reading what is said in the most beneficial interpretation possible". You don't even try that, you go right on to the veiled insults and snobbery.

The phrase you're groping for would be "The Principle of Charity".

 

[kaomera]

No complexity there but #3 confuses some people and also "takes away options". I virtually never see anyone attempt to disarm, sunder, bull rush or (worst) overrun if they don't have the right feats because they don't want to trigger an AoO.

And I'd like to add that my personal experience is that, because of this, players tend to not actually take those feats...

 

[Storm Raven]

No complexity there but #3 confuses some people and also "takes away options". I virtually never see anyone attempt to disarm, sunder, bull rush or (worst) overrun if they don't have the right feats because they don't want to trigger an AoO.

I blame DMs for this to a great extent. Effectively, the DM needs to set an example on this. If the NPCs obsessively worry about drawing AoOs, then the PCs will too, since the DM will have shown that it is a big deal. But if the DM has the NPCs use such tactics even when they might draw an AoO, and demonstrates their value, then the Pcs are likely to catch on.

No, lots of PCs won't qualify for that. Between heavy armor/low Dex characters and most classes getting a lame number of feats (barbarians, bards, clerics, druids, sorcerers, and basically any class that doesn't get bonus feats) it's not possible.

The response there is that, by their decisions, the PCs are demonstrating that it isn't that important an issue to them. Hence, I have no sympathy when they draw AoOs. And I don't stand for spending lots of time at the table counting squares to figure out how to avoid them.

 

[Justin Bacon]

There's a little thing in critical analysis call "reading what is said in the most beneficial interpretation possible". You don't even try that, you go right on to the veiled insults and snobbery.

Suffice it to say that "you misread my posts" is the most charitable interpretation I can put on JRRNeiklot's replies. The hypocrisy of your personal attack here notwithstanding, let's just leave it at that.

Anyway, to get back to the substance of the thread here: I have, as yet, heard no explanation for why trained fighters shouldn't actively avoid getting close to armed opponents they have no interest in attacking. So, barring such an explanation being proffered, I think it safe to say that we can firmly reject this as a reason why AoOs shouldn't be used.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And I'd like to add that my personal experience is that, because of this, players tend to not actually take those feats...

While I am one of the players who does take feats like Improved Trip or Improved Disarm, I am among the very few who do...

But then again, I have always been one to take a different path. In my career as M:TG player, I was an innovator, not a follower- I was among the first in D/FW to play a discard deck in tournament- but because of that, I didn't go deep in many tournaments and got labeled a "scrub."

In D20, that has meant that my Disarm/Tripping PC has sometimes been called "sub-optimal"...but he's been a blast for me to play. And nobody complains when the BBEG loses a key weapon or his balance due to my whip...

I think part of the problem is that players perceive the obvious path to building a fun PC, and that blinds them to other potential builds. They get trapped within conceptual boxes that prevent them from exploring the fringes of the game. I don't mean going for exotic, templated PCs, but rather building mainstream PCs in unusual ways.

Strength based monks generally rule in combat (as compared to other monk builds), but my Dex based monk with a polearm took full advantage of the Reach and AoO rules and did nearly as much damage in melee as the party's Barbarian...and was better at ranged combat besides.

Perhaps someone should write an article or a book about alternative builds & their effectiveness within their design niche. Builds that take advantage of or limit the effectiveness of AoOs might add to the typical game's texture.

 

[jeffh]

Suffice it to say that "you misread my posts" is the most charitable interpretation I can put on JRRNeiklot's replies.

There is, however, a difference between misunderstanding something and lying about it. Yes, even after the misunderstanding has been pointed out, occasionally; a lot of people just dig in their heels at such times, especially if they believe (rightly or wrongly) that the error was pointed out in an overtly hostile way. I'm not condoning that, but it's reality, and it means that it is, on occasion, useful to grit one's teeth and try a more patient approach.

And yes, similar advice in the other direction would not be out of place either.

 

[Plane Sailing]

So we're not able to get back on track with the thread without making comments about other people?

Thread closed.