[Rant] Fantasy - beyond the "standard" paradigm

[WayneLigon]

Go play somewhere else, preferably in your own sandbox, and stop crapping in mine.

I don't know what planet you're reading fantasy on, but it ani't the one I'm on.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

I don't know what planet you're reading fantasy on, but it ani't the one I'm on.

*shrug*

Each person percieves reality in a different way.

So, all the infighting and claiming that one method of fantasy is superior to all others, and all others aren't worth the paper and ink they're printed on isn't in your world.

That's cool.

 

[Turjan]

People want the romanticized view of medivel times, where the citizens have modern day morals and beliefs, where everyone abhors violence except the bad guys, and the good guy has the "reluctant hero" bit going on.

Hehe. Just picked this sentence, but the rest was good, too. You managed to describe very nicely why I do not read fantasy fiction at all. Yes, I read LotR, a few others and started another bunch without ever finishing them. I gave up on fantasy. Now, I love fantasy RPGs, but my inspiration does not come from fantasy fiction. Most of the fantasy literature is, IMHO, utterly boring and predictable.

 

[Psion]

The standard was shifting quickly, into strange territory, making me glad I'd stayed away from it. In thier own way, fantasy was rapidly becoming as bad as Science-Fantasy. (Star Trek and Star Wars fit in Science Fantasy best) as far as infighting, bitchiness, entrenched positions that made the Western Front look like two guys throwing snowballs across a street, and people that were convinced that thier next novel would change the world and "open people's eyes to the truth of reality" (No kidding, I heard an author claim this about her next fantasy novel, how it would open people's eyes to the fact that everyone is racist)

One thing I noticed in Fantasy, was the encroaching and creeping: "Lack of progress" as far as civilizations went. An empire had existed for thousands of years, but had not changed, there had been no evolving of the empire either technologically or spiritually. Yet they had 20th Century morals.

Fantasy also became a way to make political statements. The most famous I remember is a short story, I kid you not, where Hillary Clinton was transported to Valhalla, where she berated the male Gods and caused a revolt. IIRC it even won awards. It was crap. Let's be honest, logically, Odin would have crushed her mortal butt for mouthing off and shrieking at him like the story described. But it was considered "innovative" and "clever" instead of politically correct claptrap.

If that's what fantasy literature is today, then I am glad to not emulate it.

 

[barsoomcore]

I like Steven Brust's books. And Steven Erikson's, too. Robert E. Howard writes a kickin' story. So does Fritz Leiber. J.R.R.Tolkien is a friggin' genius.

But the rest of them... meh. There's a few I've left out, but let's face it, most fantasy is CRAP. It's piss-poor writing, weak ideas inflated beyond their ability to support and a general lack of anything interesting to say. Even the writers I've listed above have at least as many misses as they have hits.

It's tempting to blame genre classification. It's tempting to blame raving fanboys who won't allow change (since that's perceived as criticism, and nothing is more insecure than a raving fanboy).

But the truth is most fantasy writers SUCK. Most fantasy isn't worth the paper it's printed on. It's simple economics. Fantasy has been immensely popular for a good long while, which has predictably resulted in all sorts of crap flooding the market (since any yahoo with a sword can sell a few thousand copies). All that crap will wear away at the genre's popularity and fewer people will publish it, and fewer people will write it, and the market will self-select and a higher percentage of the material will actually be worth reading.

Worrying about genre definitions is a fruitless exercise that only frustrates people. When somebody says "Eberron's not fantasy so I hate it!" just parse that statement as "I hate Eberron!" get to what aspects of the setting they dislike, if you're interested. Trying to convince them that they're wrong to define it as "not-fantasy" is like teaching Mr. Long's pigs to sing -- frustrating for you, annoying for them.

Steven Brust writes a great fantasy novel. Even if they're urban detective stories with teleportation, bureaucracy and rapiers.

 

[Hussar]

No doubt about it. The actual classifications were what I called "recent" (i.e. "these", in my above post), although a century is hardly a long time in itself. I think it's in the human nature to just want to fit concepts into boxes and classify things as to understand and manipulate them better.

Digging back a bit. I would point out that fantasy, as a genre has only existed for about a century, so, of course it's very new. Heck, the novel isn't all that old as far as stories go. I think there is a tendency to forget that there wasn't anything called fantasy 50 years ago. It was all Science Fiction.

Ok, that's a gross overstatement, but you get my point. The popularity of fantasy is very recent and even fantasy as a genre, distinct from SF is very recent.

Barsoomcore makes excellent points. I wouldn't limit his comments to fantasy either. There are large steaming piles of crap on the market and, because publishing books has become a much more lucrative business than it was 50 years ago, books that wouldn't have seen print before are being packaged up and sold. Any yahoo with a sword indeed.

Interesting points.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Which is why I switched to horror and post apocalyptic writing.

I'm curious, I have been trying to find good post-apoc, could you link to anything you consider "good"? Others or your own, of course!

Also, I would concur with your perceptions about the field of fantasy writing based on my own experiences sitting in on numerous seminars at conventions I once attended.

 

[Elf Witch]

I always enjoy when the conversations about any thing like fantasy or SF or movies turns to how almost all of its is crap and how there is nothing original being written or produced and its stated as if its a fact that can't be disputed.

Taste in books, movies, music is subjective what is one man's crap is another man's gold. I read a lot of fantasy and some of its crqp and some of its gold. I don't always agree with other people on what's good. Take LOTR loved the movies think the books are tedious to read. I feel the same way about Robert Heinlen's later work when he got so powerful they stopped making him edit his books and some of them really could have done with an editor.

I remember sitting in a freezing cold hotel confrence room listening to speaker at the Confrence of the Fanastic going on and on about how most fantasy being written is crap and how writers have sold out and how nothing is original its all Tolkein and Conan rip offs.

That was back in 1984. I really feel that that people who engange in this kind of doom and gloom talk are coming off just a little pretentious. It has always seemed one way to show how smart you are by looking down your nose at something. After all most fantasy is just to plebian for such refined taste.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

After all most fantasy is just to plebian for such refined taste.

THESE guys piss me off as bad as the people who scream that nothing could ever be wrong with fantasy.

Personally, I'd like to douse both sides in Zippo fluid, and toss them into cages, each wielding flaming clubs.

THat way both very vocal, very loud, very obvious, and very ill-educated sides, both of which are convinced that there can be no middle ground, will kill each other.

And then we can sell the parts to medical labs and buy gaming stuff!!!

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

I'm curious, I have been trying to find good post-apoc, could you link to anything you consider "good"? Others or your own, of course!

Also, I would concur with your perceptions about the field of fantasy writing based on my own experiences sitting in on numerous seminars at conventions I once attended.

Some of the Survivalist pulp novels are pretty good. Interesting premises, and when I thought he'd written himself into a corner, he'd actually wiggle out of it. The series goes from the ho-hum typical Soviet invasion scenario to something quite interesting. All you have to get by is the main character being super-hero style.

Earlier Deathlands, before it got sold to Harlequin and they started Script-of-the-Weeking it.

Lately, I've been reading David Weber's Honor universe, which while it isn't post apocalyptic, it is a damn good read.

There's some really FUN stuff from the mid-80's, and while a lot of it has "filler sex" thrown in there, it's still fun stuff.

Man, there's another book out there... hang on, a trilogy by Axler called Earthblood or something like that, it was interesting.

Preaching at the audience is also creeping into PA and horror stuff too.

To quote one person: "The reader should take away a lesson from a book, or it's just a waste of time."

Bah. How about: ENTERTAIN ME, ASSJACK!