[Rant] Is Grim n Gritty anything more than prejuidice?

I think the way this discussion is developing there is more than one way to give a campaign GnGness.

1) GnG through game mechanics

2) GnG through setting and tone

GnG game mechanics are ones that tend to increase lethality for PCs along a broad front - fixed and relatively low hit points, low powered weapons, low powered offensive magic, rules for imposing consequences for certain kinds of actions (crippling rules, infections, etc). They also tend to have relatively limited ways for PCs to advance above the normals around them, keeping the average NPC on the street (or small groups of NPCs on the street) a viable threat.

GnG setting and tone is, I think, a bit easier to identify. Grey morality rather than black and white. Characters with notable character flaws. Troubled times in dangerous settings.

By contrast, there are game mechanics and setting/tone qualities that don't contribute or work against GnG. I think character abilities that take PCs well beyond the ability of normals to threaten them except in outrageously huge numbers (like in D&D) tend to work against GnG. Black and white morality also tends to work against GnG because there are few reasons to question motivations. Either it's good or it's evil, the choice is a no-brainer.

Games/campaigns that unite GnG game mechanics with setting and tone are, I think, pretty easy to identify. Games that are GnG in one area, but not in the other, are subject to debate. It would depend on what you consider more important, the setting and tone or the mechanics, and just how much the one works against the other.
For example, most CoC campaigns qualify as GnG using the Chaosium rules. Lethality is high, PCs remain threatenable by just about anything, setting is dark and grim. CoC using d20 is a little less clearly GnG because there are mechanics in it working against GnG. I don't think these overwhelm the power of the setting, but it's really not the same level of GnG as the original game.
A game based on Thieves' World would have a GnG setting and tone (the only characters aguably not really threatenable by normals are few... Tempus (and even he can be bested), Enas Yorl (and we all know he's cursed too)). Using something like Runequest's rules would add GnG-friendly mechanics. Using D&D's would detract a little, hopefully not so much to be a problem. Adjusting a few rules and spell lists here and there would help. Thieves' World with Toon rules... not GnG.
 
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billd91 said:
CoC using d20 is a little less clearly GnG because there are mechanics in it working against GnG. I don't think these overwhelm the power of the setting, but it's really not the same level of GnG as the original game.
Not to take the discussion on a sidetrack, but... well, yeah to take it on a bit of a sidetrack. I disagree with the above statement. d20 CoC is arguably more grim and gritty than BRP CoC at lower levels. Since by the rules level advancement is up to the GM, and essentially arbitrary, and since by their nature most campaigns certainly do not feature even mid-level (to say nothing of high-level) PCs, in actual play, I think it's more common for d20 CoC to actually be considerably more GnG than BRP CoC (how's that for a mouthful of acronyms?)
 

Joshua Dyal said:
Not to take the discussion on a sidetrack, but... well, yeah to take it on a bit of a sidetrack. I disagree with the above statement. d20 CoC is arguably more grim and gritty than BRP CoC at lower levels. Since by the rules level advancement is up to the GM, and essentially arbitrary, and since by their nature most campaigns certainly do not feature even mid-level (to say nothing of high-level) PCs, in actual play, I think it's more common for d20 CoC to actually be considerably more GnG than BRP CoC (how's that for a mouthful of acronyms?)

I have to disagree. Moderately high level CoC characters in d20 CoC aren't much threatened by normals aside from the 10 point massive damage rule. And attacks that do more than 10 points of damage are only semi-common. d20 CoC characters advance uniformly in offense and defense as they rise in levels, making them more lethal as they become more resistant to death.
By contrast, BRP CoC characters are relatively easy for normals to do in even if they are highly experienced. Characters advance in offense and defense irregularly depending on how the events in the campaign unfold (it is, after all, based on die rolls) so they may or may not get better at both offense and defense as they get more experienced.
 

Somehow you disagreed with me by completely ignoring my post: characters are only as high a level as the GM wants them to be. By the very nature of the game, characters that are high enough level to be less GnG than BRP don't really exist unless the GM makes a point of allowing them to.

I don't know how you can argue with me that d20 CoC is less grim and gritty because of high level PCs when my whole point was that GMs only advance PCs arbitrarily and by the nature of the game, PCs usually either die or go insane, or the campaign simply ends, before they advance beyond low levels.
 
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Wait a minute...there are high-level d20 CoC characters?

If I get one past 1st level, maybe I'll find out what that's like. Maybe.
 

WizarDru said:
Wait a minute...there are high-level d20 CoC characters?

If I get one past 1st level, maybe I'll find out what that's like. Maybe.
Exactly my point. I think I played a 3rd level PC once in d20 CoC, but we started at that level and never moved beyond it. Somewhere around there; 4th or 5th level or so, is probably about on par with a starting BRP character.

Frankly though, I'd like to tack Ken Hood's GrimNGritty Hit Points rules on top of that for ideal GnG action. I like that better than 10 point Massive Damage Threshold.
 
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Dr. Strangemonkey said:
If GnG does actually exist as anything other than a prejuidice than I definitely think that it doesn't know what it's doing as of yet. All too often the complaints I hear seem to bear little weight under investigation. I'm certain they represent a legitimate concern, I just worry that they don't yet know what they are articulating.
With all due respect, Dr. Strangemonkey, I have a much easier time understanding what people are talking about with respect to 'grim 'n' gritty' than I do your perception of "prejudice."

Prejudice against what, exactly? That what some people call the "high fantasy" of D&D, which I prefer to think of as "abundant magic," can't also be "grim 'n' gritty"? Because some people equate "grim 'n' gritty" with "low fantasy/magic," or what I call "rare magic"? That "grim 'n' gritty" isn't defined adequately for your tastes makes it a "prejudice"?

I'm sorry if this sounds challenging - it's not meant that way at all. I'm just having a hard time following your argument, which of course is my recurring defect, not yours.

In your response to one of my earlier posts, if I understood you correctly, you talk about death serving the storyline as a means of identifying "grim 'n' gritty." However, that's a literary device which may or may not have anything to do with a roleplaying game. Now I know some GMs like to run their games with the adventurers playing out their parts in some grand storyline, but personally I don't know the outcome of the story of the game until I see what the dice show - death may come at a moment that some might consider heroic, or it may happen somewhere in the middle of nothing special. Since I'm neither writing nor telling a story when I run an adventure, death is something left to chance, just like acts of heroism.

It certainly didn't serve "the story" when our tabletop Modern adventurers ended up in a TPK. It does nothing to advance the story that an important NPC in one of our Modern PbP games died from a bullet to the face - it was just the vicissitudes of a game in which chance is resolved with a roll of the dice. The fact that the characters in another PbP game are in all likelihood about to be arrested is a function of their actions, not some story that I'm trying to tell.

For this reason I'm unsure about using literary analysis as a means of describing game-play, short of a rail-baron GM's adventure in which the characters are moved from act to act, scene to scene with little of no input from the players except to roll dice when called upon. That's just me, however.

Coming back around to the original subject, I have used grim 'n' gritty to describe a style of play where magic is rare and does not have sweeping effects on society for any of a number of reasons, where death is often final (though the game itself may be no more or less lethal than any other), where people of the game world subsist by means that are quite similar to our own historical past and often suffer the same challenges and set-backs that would be familiar to all of us in that context.

I'm not a fan of 'genre D&D', but that is a preference, not a prejudice. I don't think ill of games that adhere closely to the tropes of the core rules or the gamers who play that way - I simply prefer fantasy with a different flavor. I think your use of the term "prejudice" is way over-the-top in this instance.
 

But if you're confining the PCs to just low levels, they won't get appreciably better at anything and not just the powers of dishing out and avoiding death. The antiquarian won't get any better at understanding ancient artifacts, the anthropologist learns nothing, the PI won't get better at investigating even if they vigorously work at using their skills. That doesn't strike me as gritty so much as just kind of pointless, especially in a longer campaign like Masks of Nyarlathotep rather than just one-shot adventures.

One problem with d20 CoC, that I think makes it less fun than BRP CoC in general, is that it's level based. Your ability to be an expert in your field (or in a few related fields) depends on your level because skill points and and feat access is based on your character level. Keeping them at lower levels to increase the lethality thwarts the surrounding PC development.
 

billd91 said:
But if you're confining the PCs to just low levels, they won't get appreciably better at anything and not just the powers of dishing out and avoiding death. The antiquarian won't get any better at understanding ancient artifacts, the anthropologist learns nothing, the PI won't get better at investigating even if they vigorously work at using their skills. That doesn't strike me as gritty so much as just kind of pointless, especially in a longer campaign like Masks of Nyarlathotep rather than just one-shot adventures.

One problem with d20 CoC, that I think makes it less fun than BRP CoC in general, is that it's level based. Your ability to be an expert in your field (or in a few related fields) depends on your level because skill points and and feat access is based on your character level. Keeping them at lower levels to increase the lethality thwarts the surrounding PC development.
Ah, see, now I understand the disconnect. You say that a game isn't fun or has no point unless PCs can advance, and you don't like levelled advancement.

Of course, one can argue that a game in which PCs advance often is already not veru GnG in tone, making your bringing it up here a bit of a non sequiter, but I'll just say that I completely disagree that a game with fairly static characters is pointless, or not fun. In fact, it injects a bit of gritty realism; you don't suddenly get better at things in real life like that; it takes time, practice and lots of experiences to do so. Even a long-term adventure like Masks of Nyarlathotep is arguably not the kind of thing that sees you increasing skill points as you go -- it's not like it takes place over years of game time, or that you have time to stop and internalize your experiences and turn them into "advancement."

And why would an antiquarian get better at understanding ancient artifacts because he gets in a bunch of gun fights with cultists? For one thing, an antiquarian already has a pretty decent check on any ancient artifact Knowledge check he has to make, assuming a decent INT score and max ranks in Knowledge (ancient artifacts) or (archeology) or whatever. And for another thing, whatever he learns during the game won't really be the subject of Knowledge checks anyway; it'll be specific knowledge that will just be roleplayed out.
 

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
If GnG does actually exist as anything other than a prejuidice than I definitely think that it doesn't know what it's doing as of yet. All too often the complaints I hear seem to bear little weight under investigation. I'm certain they represent a legitimate concern, I just worry that they don't yet know what they are articulating.
I've been trying to pin down the locus of your disagreement with GnG, but haven't had much luck. The above seems like an important statement though: are you asking whether GnG 'actually' exists in the way that high fantasy 'actually' exists? In other words, are you saying that a prejudice and a genre aren't the same thing? If that's the case, then I have to disagree: our way of constructing and ordering texts into genres is one way; it is far from the only way. Look at this passage from Borges (supposedly from a Chinese Encyclopedia):
Borges said:
animals are divided into: (a) belonging to the emperor, (b) embalmed, (c) tame, (d) sucking pigs, (e) sirens, (f) fabulous, (g) stray dogs, (h) included in the present classification, (i) frenzied, (j) innumerable, (k) drawn with a very fine camelhair brush, (l) et cetera, (m) having just broken the water pitcher, (n) that from a long way off look like flies.
So, when you say GnG is 'only' a prejudice, my response is: so is genre itself--so are all our cultural taxonomies. One construction doesn't have any more objective validity than the others; both are merely projections of our ways of handling texts, which are far from the only ways. I think I may be reading too much into what you're saying here though, because you argued earlier that knowledge of a genre is necessary for reading work in that genre, in the sense that knowledge of English is necessary for reading work in English, and in both cases the sort of foreknowledge we're talking about is prejudice. Maybe you're saying that the difference between high fantasy and GnG is that no such foreknowledge is required to read (or play) GnG though, which would be an interesting argument, but I don't want to attribute it to you unless you actually wanted to make it.

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
I can't tell you how much I'd love to pursue this conversation further, but I can't help feeling that too much further will take us beyond the area where this helps to explore the issue at hand.
We've gone a bit afield here, that's true. I'll put my reply in a little block, and if you want to continue the discussion feel free to email me (I'm in the middle of finals right now so I may not get a good response in for a week or so). It's the sort of discussion I've often wanted to have in the books forum, but have found people resistant to.

[sblock]I also think it's an important conversation to have for people who read genre fiction, even moreso for people who write it, or for people who complain that their professors, or academics in general, don't take it seriously. Fantasy is not 'beneath' literature in any a priori sense: it's a question of the fantasy that has been written, not the fantasy that might or could be written. There's a real argument here; it isn't as simple as wanting fantasy to be legitimate as more than a mere form of entertainment. Not taking genre fiction seriously isn't so much handwaving on the part of academics.

Tolkien stood at the beginning of a development, not at its end--but what genuine advances can we say have been made since (and by advances I don't mean improvements, but advances quite literally--how have we moved forward)? There's a sort of counter-teleology to fantasy in that people tend to think as if it was given its fullest form in the moment it was brought into existence, which shouldn't be the case.

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
Suffice to say that were we to have this conversation, I would argue that genre in fact predicates writing and that you can't, in fact, read a work without an idea of the genre involved.
Yes, but consider that the first genres, in the work of early classical commentators, actually had nothing whatever to do with genre in the sense that we think of it now (and the Borges quote I posted above is another example of this). They actually grouped texts according to their metrical forms and not anything to do with what they were about (in the sense that, on a basic level, we consider texts as being 'about' something now, which historically has not always been the case--we inherit it mostly from medieval criticism of scriptural texts and the invention of allegory). This sort of taxonomy survives in some ways, as we have different expectations reading novels than we do reading poems or manuals. Our ways of organizing texts, of theorizing genre and other sorts of groupings, say much more about us than about those texts themselves, and in this way I think that your reading can be the victim of your expectations, in the sense that you creatively force the text to comply with your prejudices about it (this is only a very cursory and half-hearted example, but several of the reviews of Episode III I've read were clearly written by people who'd decided not to like the movie before the lights went down; a better example might be Achebe's reading of Heart of Darkness and his proclaiming Conrad "a bloody racist").

I'll grant you that, in a way similar to but abstracted from the way one has to speak English to read books, one has to speak tragedy to read tragedy. And yet, the English one speaks is the least significant thing about the English one reads; the tragedy one speaks is the least significant thing about the tragedy one reads. I assume the audience of the first tragedy ever performed didn't have any trouble 'getting' it, and in a way we today, with all our 2000 years of theory about tragedy as a genre, our Aristotle, our Nietzsche, our Benjamin, will never get it. How were they able to get along so many years without any theory of tragedy? The answer, of course, is in your statement:
Dr. Strangemonkey said:
Hopefully, if you don't know the genre from somplace else the work or the context you are reading or seeing it in will teach it to you, but if you don't learn the genre or figure it out then you will never get the work in question and, on a very basic level, you will fail to produce the work in question whether as a reader or a writer. You mention that a lot of kids go into Shakespeare with no knowledge of the genre, but of those who come out of it will there be any who actually got or enjoyed the works in question who won't have learned something about the basic genre mechanics of the tragedian form?
My response to this is merely that while the work will teach itself to you as genre, as abstract meanings and procedures periphrastic to the text itself, the genre it teaches itself as is not the genre it is, because there is no fact of the matter of what genre it is in itself, or of what genre itself is. In the case of tragedy, much like Romanticism, there really is no concensus. How much do you need to know to read Shakespeare, or to see him preformed (heh, that was a typo for 'performed,' but considering the nature of the discussion I'll leave it =P)? Do you need to know that his tragedies have nothing to do with the Greeks', that they're based on Senecan closet dramas meant to be read and not acted out, that Shakespeare and Sophokles actually have essentially nothing in common? How much knowledge teachs understanding? I'm reminded of an old statement of T. S. Eliot's: "it is essential that each generation should reappraise everything for itself. Who for instance has a first-hand opinion of Shakespeare? Yet I have no doubt that much could be learned by a serious study of that semi-mythical figure." In the case of fantasy, I might posit that its future belongs to its past, and will originate with a new and violent reading of Tolkien and appropriation of his work for completely other ends (which would of course offend all kinds of fantasy 'readers'--it's a lovely bit of irony that the traditionalists, the ones who want Tolkien to be taken seriously as an author, think identically to the traditionalist professors keeping him out of serious literary discussion, whereas there are courses at major universities on, for example, The Simpsons!).

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
I'm not saying that you have to have a perfect understanding or that your reading of an individual work will not outstrip or underperform in terms of your understanding of the genre, but that there is an essential correlation between your ability to read a thing and your capacity for understanding its genre.
Of course, there never is any perfect understanding; but part of reading in general is the reduplication of meaning that creates genre by abstracting away from the text itself and reducing it to a preconfiguration of narratives and meanings. Culturally, we read in such a way as to be able to answer the question "What is this text about?" And our overemphasis on this sort of reading is what lead to the rise of a variety of deconstructive styles of reading--not only deconstrution itself but psychoanalysis, queer theory, economical critique (a.k.a. Marxist reading, which ceased to have anything to do with Marx long ago) and so on--over the last 1/2-3/4 of a century.

As far as GnG goes, my points, loosely based on all this, are that: a) GnG exists as a genre just as much as high fantasy, not because GnG or high fantasy have any sort of objective existence in themselves, but because people agree on their existing--they have a social reality; and b) that high fantasy, and every other so-called genre, are every bit as nebulous as GnG. As far as the writing of genre: in good literature--and in principle I believe that fantasy can be good literature, only that so far it hasn't been--genre, like form, like language, is something we are always trying to contradict or get away from. We want the literature to recreate the language so that it comes forth in a new and invigorating existence, almost as if it had no history (though often it is precisely by going into a language's history that this polishing is achieved) and existed solely to achieve the shining of its present meaning. Ditto for form and genre.[/sblock]
 

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