[Rant] Players Who Want Rules-Defying PCs; Game Table Politics

[Kichwas]

This is a double sided coin.

The DnD archetypes CAN be a little too narrow at times to fufill the wide range of fantasy possibilities.

There are valid reasons for wanting something not yet covered in the rules.

But at the same time there are concepts that go too far or are just there to defy game balance or genre logic.


In a Shadowrun game I ran I had a player accuse me, the GM; of being a munchkin rules lawyer for requiring him, the player; to stick within the rules fully, balance his character at all levels, and not use certain books from the older edition that I'd banned because they had serious power level issues when mixed with new edition elements.

Said player didn't last long though... he started getting hostile and even a little violent towards the other players and we as a group asked him not to return.

 

[Aaron L]

I had a friend who would only play Chaotic Neutral dwarves, or Wild Mages. After him, I absolutely despise wild magic and anything like it. But I understand your problem completely. Some people think the "roleplaying" means making up a lunatic, nonesensical character and annoying the other players.

 

[Quickbeam]

Most (if not all) of us have encountered players such as the ones you are referring to, with an equal level of frustration and sadness. As Pielorinho and Crothian have noted, most gamers go through a gimmicky phase in character creation, but the type of player you're dealing with is a whole different breed.

In my case, after reading last June's Dragon #284 I decided to create a half-dragon paladin for my PC as I transitioned from DM to player. I consulted with the new DM and several other players in the group about using a template race character, and everyone supported the idea. In fact, most of the group was curious to see how such unusual characters worked in terms of game balance with the ECL rules, etc. I will admit that such PC's can make the game a bit quirky at times, but the gimmicky characters aren't the problem -- as I'm sure you well know.

The problem is players who have no regard for game balance or the enjoyment of others...let's call them selfish jerks, shall we? Selfish jerks are unlikely to respond to constructive criticism, intelligent conversations, or other useful endeavours to restore order within the game. They'd create havoc using a standard human cleric or dwarven fighter because that's their nature. I'm sorry that you're games have been fraught with so many of these folks, AFGNCAAP. If reasonable attempts (any of the suggestions already posted in this thread) to maintain party balance and group enjoyment have failed, then hopefully you'll find a game without these annoying elements. Don't allow these dinks (to use a Teflon Billy term) to force you into quitting a hobby you enjoy .

 

[mtbdm]

been there

I've been through all sorts of stupid player politics. I've had a handful of players over the years whose sole motive in character design is to find gray areas in the rules and exploit them. My advice? Either tell them "no" or simply give the NPCs the same benefit that you allow the player. If you want a challenge, just let them do some self-directed role-playing for awhile. Let them ruin your nicely prepared adventure and go off and try whatever it is they want to try. Impose realistic restrictions and problems. They'll generally hang themselves by their own actions. Also, these power PCs are not the only powerful individuals in the world. If they want to escalate things, fine. Power PCs have to deal with Power NPCs. I, personally, do not see the difference (other than taste) between levels of play. From the lowliest beggar to the most powerful god, the GM must still create appropriate challenges for the player. A god that messes with all the other gods may soon be a dead god. But power PCs generally think they'll gain "the edge" by going outside the system or exploiting gray areas, regardless of any evidence to the contrary.

I'm not fond of "power-gaming". It's silly. The objective of the game should be for everyone to have fun, not for one player to hog the spotlight with their newest "golden boy" character. Unfortunately, being honest with a power gamer about this is usually useless. You often have to kick 'em where it hurts--right in the experience points. Give more XPs for people that make the game easier and more fun and less XPs for argumentative players that make it less fun.

And if any of the stupid "politics" crap in gaming causes you to lose players or friends, then they weren't real players or real friends anyway.

 

[cnath.rm]

Begger Mobs

The perfect example of someone using a "loophole" and then having it come back to haunt them would be the KoDT Begger Mob strip if any of you remember it offhand.

The short version (as I remember it at least) the players had a history of attacking beggers in towns they went through. The GM was ticked about this and the following sollution was proposed to him.

In one point a book stated that a mob of people all attacking one target could "overbear" them and capture them. No attack role, no save. In another point it listed that 10 (or maybe it was 20) beggers made up a mob.

So when they next mistreated a begger, the other beggers in the city rose up against them, captured them, and branded them with runes of shame before kicking them out of the city dressed in rags.

(of course the players then used the same rule combo by paying begger mobs to overbear anything and everything in the next dungeon.)

As is said by others, YMMV, it came to mind and I felt like sharing.

Best of luck to you man, I've been in games like that and it's just not fun after awhile. The DM/GM/etc starts upping the power level to deal with the "uber" pc and then the normal ones get hosed in the crossfire.

-cnath

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

1) Confession:

I am a power gamer, munchkin, twink, etc...

I am also a roleplayer.

How do I make sure they stay in harmony?

1) I never play "my newest creation" during an actual game. If I don't feel like this is a true character and not just a vehicle for number manipulation, then I don't play the character.

2) I always attempt to wholeheartedly follow the "Great Vision" of the DM. I will not play a character that grinds completely against the grain. I'm not saying that conflicts in a character are bad, or that players should always cater to the will of the DM.

I am saying that if the DM says, "You are a party of diplomats from the human lands who are negotiating a peace treaty with the elves," then I'm not going to make a CE, half-drow, half-tiefling Barbarian with a 3 Cha who wields 2 Greatswords and hates people.
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True, I will always play effective characters. I don't think it's necessary to whip out a 4 Int Wizard to satisfy characterization.
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Recently, I have (correction, had) a player who tried to out-twink the DM (me). Said player wanted his character to wield two bastard swords at level 1. I said, "The cultural level (tech level from Ravenloft) of the area you could have possibly interacted with is a 5. You would need a cultural level 7 to have a bastard sword."

The characters were from a region that had been settled 300 years ago by refugees from a Godswar in which the evil gods won and the empire had been shattered back to the dark ages.

Despite repeated attempts to negotiate a settlement, (You can have a pair of bastard swords later when you find a tech level 7 culture. Yes, they exist.) the player played in the campaign for 3 weeks, then quit.

Is this the reason the player quit? Possibly. Maybe he had other reasons. We (the 4 surviving members of the group) think it's hilarious that it's possible that a player can be so far removed from roleplaying that they would say, "The DM wouldn't let me have a bastard sword, so I quit."

And a little sad...

 

[AFGNCAAP]

Thanks for the replies... It's nice to see a post of mine stick around for a little bit rather than vanish into the sunset.

Our group has had a break in gaming due to R/L issues, but I've casually started looking elsewhere. At 1 time in the past there was another gaming group that I could have joined, but my g/f didn't enjoy gaming w/ said group, plus the group was quite large as it was--that & the tendency for a few of those players to push others to the side during gameplay kinda did it for me (plus, I wouldn't have had an opportunity to run games, only play---I enjoy running as much as playing). But, that group (from what I know) has dissolved--2 members have moved, as well as 2 members (including 1 of those who moved) have recently become parents. So, in the meantime, I'm casually looking elsewhere.

Just to reinterate---I really have no problem w/ unusual characters that can be accomdated through the rules as it is, but other than the uber-powerful combo characters (e.g., 2nd Ed. thri-kreen ranger w/ katanas, etc.), many of these characters can't be made up using the rule sets---they'd either break the rules or require a whole new set of rules to play (I'm not talking minor tweaking either---more in the lines of a complete overhaul), frequently designed without any regard to game mechanics/balance yet a "purity" for concept (this was back in the days before ECL). These characters haven't cropped up in the 3E games (yet), but they have in other games.

And, IMHO, what adds insult to injury is that 1 of the players who creates these rules-defying characters is & has been quite infrequent--has a history of not showing though saying otherwise. Basically a whole lot of time & effort spent on something that the GM will have to NPC for the night or have another player play. I'd rather have such infrequent players just pick up & play a pre-gen instead (which shouldn't be a problem at all if they're a good roleplayer).

Also, I have no problem at all with characters that are very good at what they're supposed to do--e.g., high-Int Wizards, high-Dex Rogues w/ a melee weapon that can be Weapon Finessed & a bow or crossbow, Fighters w/ high-Str & Con w/ Weapon Focus & other great feats that enhance melee combat ability, a high-Wis & Cha cleric that does all the talking, etc.

However, I do have problems w/ characters that don't have a single stat below 14 or 15 (especially now in 3E), who could pretty much best several other characters just w/ class abilities & stats alone, AND just so happens to be played by a player who, "luckily" enough, doesn't really seem to roll low AT ALL---except, of course, whenever I actually look at him roll (then my presence is "cursing" the die roll)--& has a tendency to sit far away from me at the gaming table, or at least where my view of his die rolls is obscured.

Needless to say, this player in question has a history of cheating--playfully rolling the die during the game session until he hits a good number, then stops rolling & claims that it's his die roll for when an actual roll is required; using small dice, &/or dice of particular color combos which make them hard to read from a distance; etc.

Appreciate all the feedback. Hopefully things will change for the better 1 way or another.

 

[JESawyer]

However, I do have problems w/ characters that don't have a single stat below 14 or 15 (especially now in 3E), who could pretty much best several other characters just w/ class abilities & stats alone, AND just so happens to be played by a player who, "luckily" enough, doesn't really seem to roll low AT ALL---except, of course, whenever I actually look at him roll (then my presence is "cursing" the die roll)--& has a tendency to sit far away from me at the gaming table, or at least where my view of his die rolls is obscured.

Point buy, my friend, point buy. And tell your friends to come earlier and sit at the far seats. All open rolls. I hate cheats.

 

[Berandor]

Well, well, I just wanted to make sure that this discussion would not condemn unusual characters at a whole.

I have a friend playing in my group (or had, as I recently took a tep away from the screen), who could mplay the most standard character and still annoy the heck out of you. Chaotic neutral, of course. And a rolling wonder. Seemed to roll high whenever he really needed to, or even crit.

He had a die that I forbade him to use at my table because nobody could really read the numbers. Netz session, he'd roll it again.

But as I said, he is a friend, and I couldn't oust him because of that.

And, of course, he once played a Thri-keen with longswords.

Berandor

 

[Craer]

Oy. Boy do *I* know inter-group politics. It pisses me off to no end when things start up. One group member doesn't like the other one, and that one is an ok guy, but I'm friends with both of them, and then there's the in game crap, which gets bad as everyone sometimes comes down on one guy for him trying to fairly and normally voice his interpretation of a particular rule. So much b******t just makes me very very angry. And there is always the stuff that people say behind your back and AAARRGH. I really don't know what to do. Our group is huge, i.e. 11 people or so, and I think that that may be the problem. If anyone k=has any idea as to how I can handle all this extraneous stuff and just *PLAY* the game, do tell.

You know, are there any decent gaming groups around Philadelphia? I think it's going to soon be time for me to find a new group if the crud that goes on in my group keeps up.

Please excuse the rant. I've been meaning to say this out loud for a while.

-Craer