D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Maxperson]

You speak for most traditional DMs now?

As far as I recall, fail-forward was included in the 4e DMG, 2014 DMG and 2024 DMG, so it is a pretty standard tool and piece of advice in DM's arsenal.

If you want to claim that many, if not most, DMs don't want to use the technique, you're going to have to bring the receipts.

First, I didn't say for sure that it was most, but I very strongly believe that it is. Second, 4e was not a traditional D&D game. Third, in the 5e amd 5.5e DMGs it's a small optional rule, not the default. Fourth, if you really think that fail forward is used by a majority of DMs, I've got some bridges to sell you. There's a reason why it's a tiny optional rule and not the default method.

 

[Maxperson]

Last time I checked, Yahtzee ain't a role-playing game.

Those the monkey guys from Star Frontiers?

 

[Maxperson]

No jokes, ONLY RAGE. at the machine

 

[hawkeyefan]

I'm fine with a failed roll alerting her if her existence was decided prior to the roll. I'm not fine with the roll failing and the DM saying "hmm, it's a kitchen, I guess a cook is involved".

Decided in what way? Written down in some way? Included in some boxed text? Statted out as full fledged NPC?

Is it not enough to simply imagine that a manor house or castle or similar dwelling would have servants, and that one of the most common types of servants would be a cook?

Do we also need to have the night watchmen similarly decided ahead of time? The innkeeper? Every single NPC that might exist in the town?

Is the estate in question actually defined enough that the GM knows where the map is? That would improve the scenario somewhat, from my perspective. But that kind of detailed mapping seems to require more prep than these games want.

Or is it just known vaguely, like "in the study on the second floor", with no other details known?

In the example as presented, we have no idea. That’s why its usefulness as an example has been challenged. I mean… I think it’s enough to get the idea across to those unfamiliar with it (or, I would have thought that, prior to this thread), but it’s nota very solid example at all.

How all that would be handled depends very much on the game in question, and then, upon the GM in question.

Assuming the game was 5e D&D and the GM was me, I’d have some notions about those things… the location of the map and so on. I’d likely also telegraph the presence of someone moving around beyond the door.

If I did decide that fail forward was the best way to handle this, then I wouldn’t have the cook scream already. I’d have the thief open the door, see the cook, whose eyes would go wide… clearly she’s about to scream. Then I’d ask the players what they’d do.

First, the cook isn't rolled on a wandering monster table, it's appearing in response to a completely unconnected pick lock roll.

People keep saying unconnected. But it can be connected simply. It’s already been pointed out how.

Second, it's the middle of the night when the cook would be in a deep sleep, yet the roll teleports the cook to the kitchen awake and ready to spot the party, because pick lock fail. It's not as if being in the kitchen during sleep hours is some routine thing for the cook. There's almost no chance of the cook being there.

This is a very simplistic way to view it.

Why must the cook be in a deep sleep? Why can’t she be in the kitchen? The lord breaks his fast at dawn… she needs to begin prep at least a couple hours prior. Or perhaps she sleeps on a cot in the kitchen? Or in a nook just off the kitchen?

I mean… it’s easy to shoot down ideas. To make things not work when you can decide anything. But to make something work? To look at the situation and then take dice rolls into consideration and then come up with a new situation that makes sense and honors the result? That takes some skill.

There are any number of possibilities. You just have to be a nimble GM to handle this kind of approach.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Decided in what way? Written down in some way? Included in some boxed text? Statted out as full fledged NPC?

Is it not enough to simply imagine that a manor house or castle or similar dwelling would have servants, and that one of the most common types of servants would be a cook?

Do we also need to have the night watchmen similarly decided ahead of time? The innkeeper? Every single NPC that might exist in the town?



In the example as presented, we have no idea. That’s why its usefulness as an example has been challenged. I mean… I think it’s enough to get the idea across to those unfamiliar with it (or, I would have thought that, prior to this thread), but it’s nota very solid example at all.

How all that would be handled depends very much on the game in question, and then, upon the GM in question.

Assuming the game was 5e D&D and the GM was me, I’d have some notions about those things… the location of the map and so on. I’d likely also telegraph the presence of someone moving around beyond the door.

If I did decide that fail forward was the best way to handle this, then I wouldn’t have the cook scream already. I’d have the thief open the door, see the cook, whose eyes would go wide… clearly she’s about to scream. Then I’d ask the players what they’d do.



People keep saying unconnected. But it can be connected simply. It’s already been pointed out how.



This is a very simplistic way to view it.

Why must the cook be in a deep sleep? Why can’t she be in the kitchen? The lord breaks his fast at dawn… she needs to begin prep at least a couple hours prior. Or perhaps she sleeps on a cot in the kitchen? Or in a nook just off the kitchen?

I mean… it’s easy to shoot down ideas. To make things not work when you can decide anything. But to make something work? To look at the situation and then take dice rolls into consideration and then come up with a new situation that makes sense and honors the result? That takes some skill.

There are any number of possibilities. You just have to be a nimble GM to handle this kind of approach.

Way to tell people they don't GM hard enough for your liking.

 

[Maxperson]

People keep saying unconnected. But it can be connected simply. It’s already been pointed out how.

It's connected in the same way that I'm connected to grass because I ate a steak.

Why must the cook be in a deep sleep? Why can’t she be in the kitchen? The lord breaks his fast at dawn… she needs to begin prep at least a couple hours prior. Or perhaps she sleeps on a cot in the kitchen? Or in a nook just off the kitchen?

Because it's the middle of the night, not early morning. She wouldn't need to be up at midnight to 2am to make breakfast for dawn. And I already pre-established in prior posts that she sleeps upstairs. Am I supposed to alter the physical structure of the tower, and the reality she remembers just because someone failed to pick a lock?

 

[James Gasik]

Man this conversation moves fast.

The way I see random encounters, the NPC's don't appear from nowhere- they're present in the area, but whether or not they'd be in a given place at a given moment is dependent on factors the PC's might not be aware of. Everyone has a routine, they don't just hang out in one place. And there are innumerable reasons why they could not be where you'd expect them to be- they may have overslept, had to go to the bathroom, needed a bite to eat, got summoned by the boss, or even were on their way someplace and forgot something (I've wandered into rooms wondering why I came there more than once, lol).

The idea is that the NPC could potentially be in one place. In another parallel universe, they might be someplace different. The dice simply have the power to tell you which timeline you're in when there's any doubt.

Plenty of adventures over the decades will say things like "this room is where this NPC lives/works. They can be encountered here, or perhaps in another room"- depending on the time of day, unforeseen consequences of player actions, or DM's whim.

If you're in a goblin lair, for example, some goblins will be on patrol. Some will be scouting, hunting, or raiding elsewhere. They might come back to be a complication at some point, or they may not. Ultimately, the DM has to decide, and a random die roll is just as cromulent as the will of the gods.

Today, you might have gotten in your car and gone somewhere. You didn't get into a car accident (I hope!). But you could have. At any given moment, someone could be late for work, under the influence, staring at their cell phone. Just because you didn't have that kind of encounter doesn't mean the possibility didn't exist.

Some people have espoused the belief that the DM shouldn't be moving things around behind the scenes, and have every second of every day plotted out. But I submit it increases verisimilitude to have the world not on a strict time table, while at the same time, helping the game to run more smoothly.

Missing a player? Is Throg the Bandit not present in the final battle? Well he's in the commode dealing with an upset tummy. It could happen, it's believable. It doesn't destroy the foundations of immersion (or shouldn't) if it does happen.

A failed roll that causes you to fall into a trap might reveal that someone forgot to clean the trap, and there's the dead corpse of a fallen adventurer down there with some treasure or a vital plot coupon. That's an interesting example of failing forward- otherwise, the players might find those possessions elsewhere, if Clancy the Kobold hadn't been lazy today!

We can accept die rolls determining the results of individual actions as part of the game/narrative- so why not determining that the BBEG is in his bedroom with his lady love as opposed to the throne room?

 

[Hussar]

No. The roll was for the monster to wander into the group in that specific forest at a very specific time on the day I know that they are there. If for some reason the party teleports somewhere else before the wandering monster would arrive, they will not encounter trolls. The same would happen if they somehow transported a significant way through the forest, since the wandering monster would not be in that area.

What I'm saying is that if the party is in the same area, it doesn't matter if they walked the entire time or spent a bit of time foraging. They are still in the area where the wandering monster is.

Correct.

But, if the party was a couple of miles east, then they would still be in the forest but not at that location. So, still quantum. Note, you admit it yourself - AREA. The encounter occurs because of a completely arbitrary roll on a completely arbitrary table and occurs at whatever location the PC's happen to be in, regardless of their actual location. So long as they are somewhere in that forest, they will have that encounter.

So. Quantum. Unless your encounter can only happen in a specific location, then it has to be quantum. There's no way for it not to be. A few hundred yards in any direction and that encounter never happens unless our random encounter somehow, through some unspecified manner, always appears exactly where the PCs are. I wonder what that unspecified manner could possibly be.

 

[Lanefan]

It is even better than this! Why did the random encounter happen? Because the random encounter clock ran out and a check was required. Why did the clock run out? Because the thief spent 5 turns failing to pick the lock on the door!!!!

Thing is, that clock would have run out at the same in-game time no matter what the PCs were doing. The only difference is that had they got through the lock sooner, it would have run out with the PCs in a different place and possibly in the territory of a different set of wandering monsters.

 

[Lanefan]

Right, I think this sort of thing only really matters if your focus is on maintaining a specific narrative thread. There's also lots of ways to gracefully give the players a couple of immediate potential nudges forward on a failure that aren't quite "you immediately get something" but more "hey, do you want to...?"

I think there's a lot of different avenues this stuff can go, but Imo the key is "the DM is going to keep tossing suggestions or conversation starters out there to avoid aimless wandering."

The bolded is in itself a fairly big assumption.

IME, let it happen. Aimless wandering only goes on for so long*, and then the players get bored and do something more focused. Now just what that "something more focused" will be and-or how-when it will arise are often complete unknowns, which puts the DM fully in react mode when aimless suddenly turns to focused.

It also depends on the players. Some are far better at stirring the pot than others.

Thinking about it, I might be in this situation as DM within the next few sessions. They just finished an adventure, next session will disappear in downtime, treasury division, and training, and after that I've got nothing planned for them - it'll be up to them what they decide to do next. Some aimless wandering could very well be on the agenda.

* - exception: if it's the start of the campaign and the players aren't familiar with the setting and its ongoing history yet, they'll often need a shove - or a lot of dangling hooks - to get them started; and that's fair enough.