D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[EzekielRaiden]

If you're going to be pedantic...then 1) multiple versions of the anecdote were referred to and 2) you don't need to do statistics on something to make it data (or a datum, for the pedants). Any information is data. The whole 'anecdotes aren't data' idea is just placing an artificial bound on what counts.

Okay.

Anecdotes are such incredibly crappy data that they provide essentially zero actual information, and are instead 99.999% noise.

Meaning, if you want to pan anything out of them, you need many many many of them. Like, I dunno. Maybe several thousand? Perhaps a hundred thousand?

But it is significantly easier and only the very, very, very tiniest bit inaccurate to summarize "Even a dozen anecdotes are such paltry, awful, useless 'data' that they can tell you functionally nothing in terms of representation of the whole population" as "the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data.'"

That response's level of inaccuracy is comparable to the level of accuracy of anecdotes being used for reasoning about a population: extremely small.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And if the more experienced GMs and players are actually really bad at what they do?

Then eventually you figure that out and have to make a choice.

You're not going to convince me that hard-coded rules for GMs are the way to go. If that's what you want, have fun with it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And I argue every unwritten rule will be broken. Especially in an environment where it is one specific person doing the breaking, when everyone else is incredibly tightly bound by hard, explicit rules.

Really makes you wonder just how all those trad-leaning tables are managing to have any fun at all with all these terrible, social contract-breaking GMs lording their unlimited power over the defenseless players...

 

[Micah Sweet]

I had a DM who provided us with “NPCs” that he “suggested” we play in favor of the PCs we had. None of us went with it… it seemed an odd request. Then as we played and we saw that everything that was happening was related to the NPCs and our PCs were simply along for the ride, it became really obvious that we were just meant to play through his novel.

What percentage of Narrativists came by their chosen preference via formative experiences with GM they didn't get along with to some degree, do you think? I'm hearing a lot of "I've had bad experiences with bad GMs" over and over from that "side".

 

[Micah Sweet]

Precisely.

It would be like an employer, where the only response the employees can give to not getting paid for their agreed wages is just quitting the job and walking. No accountability. No restitution for unfulfilled promises. Nothing punitive at all, except "game ends."

And because we live in a world where groups starving for GMs are a dime a dozen, even the worst GMs can always find new groups.

Nothing punitive? Are you looking to punish GMs?

 

[Micah Sweet]

More or less.


Not at all. Several OSR-adjacent folks on this forum (some of them participating in this thread!) have made very clear just how horrendous an affront it is for a player to put even a single toe out of line.

I'm sure they explained their views just like that too.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Nothing punitive? Are you looking to punish GMs?

Are GMs looking to punish players? Punitive responses have been specifically expected if players misbehave.

Edit: More importantly, the point was that this functionally costs the GM nothing. The players pay at least as much, possibly more, given (as stated) the extreme dearth of GMs.

I'm sure they explained their views just like that too.

Of course not. That would be saying the quiet part out loud.

 

[Maxperson]

So "except for nothing."

Good to know.

It's as strong a preventative as the DM just standing up and punching you for no reason. Neither are going to happen, so why worry about it?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Are GMs looking to punish players? Punitive responses have been specifically expected if players misbehave.

Edit: More importantly, the point was that this functionally costs the GM nothing. The players pay at least as much, possibly more, given (as stated) the extreme dearth of GMs.


Of course not. That would be saying the quiet part out loud.

Like what? What are these "punishments" the awful GMs are levying on their innocent players just looking to have a fun night?

 

[Maxperson]

Why? You've always said the power is absolute and that no rules, whatsoever, can ever limit them.

And I've said what you are questioning in each and every one of those conversations, because folks like to Strawman that into meaning DMs are right evil bastards who are going to do everything in their unlimited power to poof pixies into existence and knock people off of cliffs.

Social contracts accomplish nothing when someone can do whatever they want. That's the whole point.

This is factually false. What you just argued is that there is no such thing as a social contract that means anything. Social contracts are stronger and more binding than written rules. We are a social species.