D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[TwoSix]

Sure it may. If I consider a game that doesn’t allow me to have some input on the fiction that happens, if I’m meant to be a tourist witnessing the GM’s world… I’m gonna feel like I’m railroaded. Everything’s predetermined… I mean, that’s a big factor in railroading. Reaching predetermined events.

I mean, every adventure path is essentially a railroad. It’s one of those touristy railroads, of course, where they offer you drinks and snacks and a really nice view out of the windows. But you get on the ride knowing exactly where you’re going to end up.

Railroads aren’t always bad, even if it’s generally used as a pejorative term. Plenty of systems and players need a GM’s heavy hand to get the game to run.

But it’s silly to lie to yourself and others about what you’re doing. Be like a Monopoly player and own your railroads.

 

[Mort]

Well if the world is truly being invented independent of players/characters (save what the characters can actually impact in the fiction) then that principle alone takes care of railroading. One cannot railroad such that all paths always force X without having a dependency on the characters broader than what the characters can do in the fiction.

The nature of a railroad is that the dm (or other player) is establishing fiction to force characters down a particular path. You can’t do that if you establish the fiction independent of those characters (other than what they can accomplish with their fictional actions).

It can certainly be railroading if the players are interacting with it and think they have a role in establishing it, when they, in fact, don't.

If the DM wrote a story (all elements are established without the players) and is simply leading the players through it, without the players being aware they have no say in any of it (as in, regardless of what the players do, the DMs story happens) - that's clearly railroading.

 

[FrogReaver]

It is IF the DM leads the players into believing that they are the ones establishing these details, when in fact they are not.

If/when the players think that certain details are established by their actions but, actually, they are determined by the DM regardless of what the players do - that's railroading.

If we're just talking about setting details the players have no part in? Setup, worldbuilding, things established before the players even get it it - stuff like that? No, that wouldn't have anything to do with railroading.




Yes, that's basically what I'm talking about. I don't think there is disagreement here.

IMO, illusionism very much has the moment to moment of play depend on what the players do. If the players decide to have their characters leave the dungeon then there’s something blocking their path that wouldn’t have been there had the characters not wanted to leave.

In this sense the character action created the blocked exit. The issue is that fictionally there is no justification for such an action doing that. (I think there’s some analogous parts to the runes here).

 

[FrogReaver]

It can certainly be railroading if the players are interacting with it and think they have a role in establishing it, when they, in fact, don't.

If the DM wrote a story (all elements are established without the players) and is simply leading the players through it, without the players being aware they have no say in any of it (as in, regardless of what the players do, the DMs story happens) - that's clearly railroading.

He can’t do that unless the world reacts to the players choices to always reinforce his story. That is it’s not an independent world.

 

[FrogReaver]

I mean, every adventure path is essentially a railroad. It’s one of those touristy railroads, of course, where they offer you drinks and snacks and a really nice view out of the windows. But you get on the ride knowing exactly where you’re going to end up.

Railroads aren’t always bad, even if it’s generally used as a pejorative term. Plenty of systems and players need a GM’s heavy hand to get the game to run.

But it’s silly to lie to yourself and others about what you’re doing. Be like a Monopoly player and own your railroads.

As long as the players voluntarily stay on the tracks it’s not a railroad. The moment a dm intervenes to keep them on the tracks, that part is railroading.

 

[Maggan]

Ok, I guess it's time for all of us in this thread to jump on the "what is railroading" train! All aboard!

My most popular published adventures are quite railroady, and I also think that works well for me and my players. Not that we think a lot about it, we mostly run pre-written material so it's kinda implied that some things in the world will happen notwithstanding player or player character actions. The world moves on, and the PCs with it.

So we don't sit down and hum and haw about our adventures being railroady, it just ordinary roleplaying to us.

Of course, if the player actions make absolutely no difference to anything, we might be a bit miffed. But the spectrum between "railroad" and "sandbox" is quite wide, and we will travel back and forth on this spectrum all the time while playing.

 

[Mort]

He can’t do that unless the world reacts to the players choices to always reinforce his story. That is it’s not an independent world.

Right, and if "the world" reacts to the players by invalidating their choice in favor of the DMs predetermined outcome, that's railroading.

 

[FrogReaver]

Ok, I guess it's time for all of us in this thread to jump on the "what is railroading" train! All aboard!

My most popular published adventures are quite railroady, and I also think that works well for me and my players. Not that we think a lot about it, we mostly run pre-written material so it's kinda implied that some things in the world will happen notwithstanding player or player character actions. The world moves on, and the PCs with it.

So we don't sit down and hum and haw about our adventures being railroady, it just ordinary roleplaying to us.

Of course, if the player actions make absolutely no difference to anything, we might be a bit miffed. But the spectrum between "railroad" and "sandbox" is quite wide, and we will travel back and forth on this spectrum all the time while playing.

Sorry, but having events happen independent of characters doesn’t make something a railroad.

There seems to be some major conflation with linear adventure and railroading. These 2 things aren’t the same thing. Railroading requires force/deception/coercion. Linear adventures just require voluntarily staying on the tracks.

Railroading as a term has connotation outside rpging and linear adventures.

From Cambridge dictionary - railroad (verb): ‘to force something to happen or force someone to do something, especially quickly or unfairly:’

Linear adventures do not exhibit this feature.

 

[FrogReaver]

Right, and if "the world" reacts to the players by invalidating their choice in favor of the DMs predetermined outcome, that's railroading.

Exactly, thus the principle of an independent world negating railroading.

 

[Mort]

Ok, I guess it's time for all of us in this thread to jump on the "what is railroading" train! All aboard!

My most popular published adventures are quite railroady, and I also think that works well for me and my players. Not that we think a lot about it, we mostly run pre-written material so it's kinda implied that some things in the world will happen notwithstanding player or player character actions. The world moves on, and the PCs with it.

So we don't sit down and hum and haw about our adventures being railroady, it just ordinary roleplaying to us.

Of course, if the player actions make absolutely no difference to anything, we might be a bit miffed. But the spectrum between "railroad" and "sandbox" is quite wide, and we will travel back and forth on this spectrum all the time while playing.

For me, if the players are aware and choose to follow along, as they would in most published adventures - that's not railroading. The players simply recognize that their choices are constrained by the adventure and are cool with that.

For it to be railroading there had to be an element of deception, where the players think their actions have meaning when they really don't.