D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[TorgoTheWhite]

Fun topic, railroading. I often "allow" off-path behavior. Though, like yesterday for my group, sometimes the disconnect between player and character can lead to an illogical thought-path, which was happening yesterday. It wasn't that they COULDN'T get their kidnapped party member back, just that the feasibility of doing it with the party-makeup right at that moment was unlikely

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I just want to ask: “but you have fun playing, right?”

I know debating can be fun…but sometimes you come away from these discussions and wonder.

There is so much variability out there to be found…it’s about goodness of fit.

The discussion about DM authority and stances and all of it misses something, I think.

For me, I want to play in a world that is there…I want to explore and be challenged. The “creating the story” is not what I strive for as a player.

I want to know the terrain is difficult and react and choose based on that reality. I don’t want to tell the DM I know I can get around it. I want to see if my roll allows me to do what I choose and to mitigate risk with the use of rope.

For me, having it down on my character sheet because I chose to buy it is so much more gratifying than telling the DM “pack rat jr is always prepared so he has rope with him” regardless of my choices at the shop.

YMMV but I want some parameters and to operate within a structure that exists. Where it does not, I am good with the DM thinking, “in this town most town guards are on alert after X events…those happened. Pack rat wants to sneak…I think they will be more watchful…”. And then ask for a roll to sneak at disadvantage.

I don’t want my character telling the DM the odds or complications. I just think giving the dm the right and duty to make a playing field is more gratifying. I want to overcome what I see, not tell the DM I don’t need to overcome it.

If I play a platformer video game I want to know my skill determines if I land on the platform. I don’t want to tell the game that I didn’t miss afterall because I grabbed some rocks that were there all along.

But I know that if the goal is to narrate and create a scene the goal is different…and to each their own.

 

[CreamCloud0]

@TorgoTheWhite is post 20,730 just Mort's quote or am i not seeing something? if so should i assume your following post is meant to a response to said previous quote?

 

[bloodtide]

He talks a big game, but other things he said contradict his declared "joy" of railroading players. I think he has some alternative definition of railroading.

Really? I'd be happy to set straight any contradictions.

 

[Maxperson]

I mean, every adventure path is essentially a railroad. It’s one of those touristy railroads, of course, where they offer you drinks and snacks and a really nice view out of the windows. But you get on the ride knowing exactly where you’re going to end up.

Railroads aren’t always bad, even if it’s generally used as a pejorative term. Plenty of systems and players need a GM’s heavy hand to get the game to run.

But it’s silly to lie to yourself and others about what you’re doing. Be like a Monopoly player and own your railroads.

I've already proven that to be untrue. You can't get off of a railroad. You can get off of an adventure path. An adventure path can be a railroad, but isn't inherently one.

Think of an adventure path like walking down a path in the woods. Nothing is stopping you from stepping off the path and going off in a different direction. Unlike say being on a train speeding down the railroad track. You aren't exiting the track until the train stops wherever it's taking you.

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

@TorgoTheWhite is post 20,730 just Mort's quote or am i not seeing something? if so should i assume your following post is meant to a response to said previous quote?

Yeah my phone has a mind of its own. Just a quote I didn't want to make

 

[Maxperson]

IMO, illusionism very much has the moment to moment of play depend on what the players do. If the players decide to have their characters leave the dungeon then there’s something blocking their path that wouldn’t have been there had the characters not wanted to leave.

In this sense the character action created the blocked exit. The issue is that fictionally there is no justification for such an action doing that. (I think there’s some analogous parts to the runes here).

That seems like an example of normal railroading.

Normal railroading is the DM forcing the players down a path regardless of what they choose to do. In this case throwing up an obstacle preventing them from leaving.

Illusionism isn't brute force like that. Illusionism is for example presenting the players with a choice. Through one door is freedom from the dungeon. Through the other an ogre. Then no matter which door they choose, the ogre is there. They have been presented with an illusion of choice.

 

[Maxperson]

For me, if the players are aware and choose to follow along, as they would in most published adventures - that's not railroading. The players simply recognize that their choices are constrained by the adventure and are cool with that.

For it to be railroading there had to be an element of deception, where the players think their actions have meaning when they really don't.

Not just deception. For it not to be railroading there has to be the option to walk off the tracks and go a different direction. If they are going down an adventure path and they decide to instead strike out west to search for gold in them thar hills, if the DM doesn't let them, it's a railroad. There's no deception involved with that. He's just not letting them go either by saying no, or by throwing up obstacles that force them back onto the path.

If deception is involved, it's more the province of illusionism, which is also a railroad, and in my opinion the worst of the two.

 

[AlViking]

I tend to limit the term railroad to the derogatory usage, to avoid confusion.

Otherwise, I just prefer the term linear. If an adventure goes from A-B-C-Z, the players are aware of this and go along, that's just linear. Not only is there nothing wrong with this, in my experience, many players actually prefer this over a sandbox (especially a sandbox where the DM hasn't set enough hooks and the like).

If the adventure PRETENDS to be open world, endless choices with each choice leading to different opportunities consequences, but in fact the only meaningful choices are the ones that lead from A-B-C-Z, that's a railroad.

I run a mostly sandbox game but I would still rank my games somewhere around 3-5 on my scale. Even though I always give people options and choices I ask that they decide where there headed before the session so I can figure out details. Even then I think possible approaches, what's going on and signposts but its up to them how they pursue things. It varies by group though, with some preferring something closer to linear. But with those I don't have overarching plots in mind because what happens depends so much on player choices.

While I never run modules or linear games for my home game, I have for AL games. I have fun playing in linear campaigns as long as I know what I'm getting into. I'm playing a game using Candlekeep Mysteries, so we get our assignments, there's a lot preplanned. But I still wouldn't classify it as a railroad because even though we know we're going to make various stops along the way, we still have freedom on how we approach and handle those stops.

There's a lot of ways to play the game, as long as people are enjoying it i don't see an issue.

 

[Maxperson]

Sorry, but having events happen independent of characters doesn’t make something a railroad.

There seems to be some major conflation with linear adventure and railroading. These 2 things aren’t the same thing. Railroading requires force/deception/coercion. Linear adventures just require voluntarily staying on the tracks.

Railroading as a term has connotation outside rpging and linear adventures.

From Cambridge dictionary - railroad (verb): ‘to force something to happen or force someone to do something, especially quickly or unfairly:’

Linear adventures do not exhibit this feature.

I would argue that the bolded are the same thing.