D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Lanefan]

The nature of a railroad is that the dm (or other player) is establishing fiction to force characters down a particular path. You can’t do that if you establish the fiction independent of those characters (other than what they can accomplish with their fictional actions).

Well, at a small-to-medium scale you in fact can force characters down a particular path in how you pre-establish the fiction; simply by how you design/write your adventures.

For example, they might go into an adventure where you-as-DM have set it up such that if-when they reach area 23 on the map they get teleported into a completely different adventure, in which when they reach the statue of Demogorgon they get plunged into the abyss from which they have only one way out and it's clearly signposted, etc.

Sooner or later, though, you have to give them some downtime; and downtime is when the rails fall away.

 

[GothmogIV]

Is this the longest thread ever, or the one with the most replies or something? Curious.

 

[Faolyn]

Ah, the old canard about the slippery slope of GM authority leading inevitably to the dark pit of railroading. I guess railroading GMs exist, millions of people play RPGs after all, but to me it's always been pretty much the gamer version of Satanic panic. Lots of smoke, no fire. The bad GMs I've had would have been bad GMs with just about every system.

As far as "quantum" I haven't used it since someone complained about it. Altering reality? Well a player deciding that the runes were a map did alter the reality of the fiction. If the rules of the game and the rest of the people at the table are okay with it, why is it a problem to state what they are doing? It's their game, let them do what they want.

I've had a railroading GM--he changed backstory and ignored extremely important character traits to tell his story, and got extremely angry whenever players tried to do their own thing or pointed out those extremely important traits. They do exist.

The thing is, you get railroads where the GM is expected to have a specific plot of some sort (the above game was Changeling: the Dreaming). If the game actively tells the GM to follow the players instead of a predetermined story, then the system itself is at least trying to fight against railroads.

 

[Lanefan]

Sorry, but having events happen independent of characters doesn’t make something a railroad.

There seems to be some major conflation with linear adventure and railroading. These 2 things aren’t the same thing. Railroading requires force/deception/coercion. Linear adventures just require voluntarily staying on the tracks.

Railroading as a term has connotation outside rpging and linear adventures.

From Cambridge dictionary - railroad (verb): ‘to force something to happen or force someone to do something, especially quickly or unfairly:’

Linear adventures do not exhibit this feature.

To a point.

In a truly linear adventure, designed as one unavoidable room after the next like a string of beads*, there's only ever three exploration choices for the PCs: go ahead, go back, or stay put where they are. In that respect it's the same as a railroad, as the driver of a train on a track also has only those three choices: the train simply can't go anywhere else.

* - some of the old TSR tournament modules are very much designed this way.

 

[AlViking]

I've had a railroading GM--he changed backstory and ignored extremely important character traits to tell his story, and got extremely angry whenever players tried to do their own thing or pointed out those extremely important traits. They do exist.

The thing is, you get railroads where the GM is expected to have a specific plot of some sort (the above game was Changeling: the Dreaming). If the game actively tells the GM to follow the players instead of a predetermined story, then the system itself is at least trying to fight against railroads.

I wouldn't put up with that DM for long. Did you?

The rules in D&D also tells the DM

"Being clear about your expectations and making sure you understand your players’ expectations in return can help ensure a smooth game. Take your players’ opinions and desires seriously, and make sure they take yours just as seriously. "

Along with other advice about mutual respect, etc.. But the text in the book can never enforce any behavior.

 

[nevin]

Well, at a small-to-medium scale you in fact can force characters down a particular path in how you pre-establish the fiction; simply by how you design/write your adventures.

For example, they might go into an adventure where you-as-DM have set it up such that if-when they reach area 23 on the map they get teleported into a completely different adventure, in which when they reach the statue of Demogorgon they get plunged into the abyss from which they have only one way out and it's clearly signposted, etc.

Sooner or later, though, you have to give them some downtime; and downtime is when the rails fall away.

nah downtime is when the railroad stations get built. I also find it creates great starting points for the next games after those characters retire.

 

[nevin]

To a point.

In a truly linear adventure, designed as one unavoidable room after the next like a string of beads*, there's only ever three exploration choices for the PCs: go ahead, go back, or stay put where they are. In that respect it's the same as a railroad, as the driver of a train on a track also has only those three choices: the train simply can't go anywhere else.

* - some of the old TSR tournament modules are very much designed this way.

that's fine for a one off module. It gets really freaking old in a long ongoing game. Even for me when I'm DM'ing.

 

[Maggan]

Is this the longest thread ever, or the one with the most replies or something? Curious.

At least it is the thread with the most Off Topic tangents ever.

 

[clearstream]

I don’t want my character telling the DM the odds or complications. I just think giving the dm the right and duty to make a playing field is more gratifying. I want to overcome what I see, not tell the DM I don’t need to overcome it.

If I play a platformer video game I want to know my skill determines if I land on the platform. I don’t want to tell the game that I didn’t miss afterall because I grabbed some rocks that were there all along.

This relates to what I mean about DM as lusory-means. Part of the mechanism of play for D&D.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

This relates to what I mean about DM as lusory-means. Part of the mechanism of play for D&D.

I don’t think anything in my description is arbitrary any more than squares on a checkerboard after it is designed. Surely the DM plans some playing fields in traditional gaming.

The players don’t know what is out there but to the extent that is reasonable, there is an out there. There are specifics that are planned and in other instances, there are world consistent generalities that generate new facts perhaps along with some
Random tables.

That still feels pretty grounded to me even if the DM was sitting with graph paper saying that maybe the cave has two entrances instead of 1.

It’s all to me fine if it’s fun but when I am the player I like to know there are things outside of my whims and choices.

As a dm, I have the most fun when I set up parameters and know how they likely behave with certain inputs, counting on players to choose the inputs.

Fun stories arise but not always as a player or DM has foreseen and planned. But again, I respect some people like to create fiction and roleplay more than play a wargame. I clearly lean to the latter priority.