D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

You think the peasants stand a chance against a dragon? One that would just fly down an obliterate them with a breath weapon? That's kind of the point of dragons in 5e, enough armed soldiers can still be a threat to most dragons, especially young dragons. But they're still a massive threat.

How that relates to minions I have no clue.
Peasants with longbows can hit the dragon if it can hit them. There's a number and like @EzekielRaiden I forget what it is, but if you have that many or more commoners with longbows, even an ancient dragon will die or be forced to flee. That number is well below the number you would find in a city, and perhaps even a large town.

5e should have used immunity to non-magical weapons more.
 

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Let me get this straight
  • 150 peasants (why not 1,000? 10,000?)
  • armed with slings at the ready
  • all have clear shots at the dragon because it's an open field with no cover
  • in formation so as to not be taken out by a breath weapon
  • ready to attack the moment the dragon appears
  • the dragon presumably then flies within 30 feet of all of them (the short range for a sling)

Is not having the odds heavily stacked against them? Wowzers.

What exactly are you trying to prove? That you can create a hypothetical scenario for suicidal dragons?
Where do you think people live???

Villages are going to be next to fields. It's where their animals graze.

For God's sake, your "wowzers" at something that is so utterly mundane it is NEARLY UNIVERSAL is astounding.

We're done here.
 

Noooope. Don't need to "heavily, heavily stack the odds".

It's literally just like a hundred, hundred and fifty peasants with slings. That's all you need. "Perfectly positioned"? Not at all. Literally just don't cluster up and don't stand in a straight line.

A semicircular arc is good enough, or a couple arcs, or just scattered around in, say, a 60x60 square.

Dragons should not ever assault anything bigger than a..."hamlet" I think was the official term from the Gygaxian era? They'll straight-up die as long as the villagers are even remotely trying to defend themselves.
Big ol' dragon in 1e had 88 hit points and an AC somewhere in the negatives (can't be bothered to look it up right now). Those peasants needed a natural 20 to hit.

150 peasants with slings (let's give them proper bullets, so d4+1 damage each) are on average going to roll (let's be generous and round up) 8 20s in the first round, assuming they're all within range to shoot. At 3.5 average damage per hit, that's 28 points damage in the first round. Meanwhile, peasants are both dropping like flies from the breath weapon and fleeing like rabbits due to the dragon's fear aura, meaning the odds of their getting more than 50 shots in aggregate the next round are dubious at best.

But let's say they do: 3 hits, so 11 points damage. That's 39 so far, not even half what's needed to knock that baby off.

After that, those peasants will be lucky to collectively put up 20 shots a round, dwindling further as more of them either flee, die, or both. They miiiiiiight manage another 15 points aggregate damage to the dragon, after which they're all dead and the dragon has a fine lunch.

54 points damage out of 88 isn't even enough to force the dragon to land.
And if you think I'm wrong, prove it. Prove the dragon almost always survives. The math is there. You should be able to easily show that this isn't a problem. Presume 150 peasants distributed loosely across a field. Shouldn't be hard at all to show that an adult red dragon can essentially always survive that, as you're claiming.
Keep in mind that if the peasants are distributed too loosely then not all of them will be within shooting range each round. The dragon can stay high out of everyone's range until it comes in for its breath pass, at which point those in range will get a shot.

Above, I was nice to the peasants and assumed they were all in shooting range.
 

Big ol' dragon in 1e had 88 hit points and an AC somewhere in the negatives (can't be bothered to look it up right now). Those peasants needed a natural 20 to hit.

150 peasants with slings (let's give them proper bullets, so d4+1 damage each) are on average going to roll (let's be generous and round up) 8 20s in the first round, assuming they're all within range to shoot. At 3.5 average damage per hit, that's 28 points damage in the first round. Meanwhile, peasants are both dropping like flies from the breath weapon and fleeing like rabbits due to the dragon's fear aura, meaning the odds of their getting more than 50 shots in aggregate the next round are dubious at best.

But let's say they do: 3 hits, so 11 points damage. That's 39 so far, not even half what's needed to knock that baby off.

After that, those peasants will be lucky to collectively put up 20 shots a round, dwindling further as more of them either flee, die, or both. They miiiiiiight manage another 15 points aggregate damage to the dragon, after which they're all dead and the dragon has a fine lunch.

54 points damage out of 88 isn't even enough to force the dragon to land.

Keep in mind that if the peasants are distributed too loosely then not all of them will be within shooting range each round. The dragon can stay high out of everyone's range until it comes in for its breath pass, at which point those in range will get a shot.

Above, I was nice to the peasants and assumed they were all in shooting range.
I was talking about 5e.
 

No. It is in the actual critical and audience positive response, in people analyzing how this new Superman film fixes an ongoing problem that superhero media has suffered for at least the past decade, and how it in fact broke down specifically the things that people thought they "had" to do because audiences asked for it.

Because, need I remind you, Batman v Superman was nowhere near as well-received by audiences...and yet it still made a significant profit over its budget, even when you account for the "budget doesn't include a huge amount of the cost to do a film". That is, it made something like $874M in 2016 dollars, on a budget somewhere between $250M and $325M. Making two and a half to three times the listed budget still means it was an unequivocally successful film, a top-ten film that year for gross income in fact--and yet it was a critical and audience disappointment. 2017's Justice League was even worse, failing to reach the break-even point.

Just because something is an unequivocal success doesn't mean it is well-made or what its audience actually wants. That also doesn't mean it is a horrible awful monstrosity that needs to be burned with fire. It just means that raw profit does not tell you if the thing was good, well-made, or what audiences are actually looking for. Profit is a proxy measure. Proxy measures not only can, but do fail to actually measure the thing they are proxy for. It's an unfortunate truth (it would be lovely if we could consistently measure things by proxy data that is way easier to obtain and analyze)--but it is a truth nonetheless.

And if film examples aren't enough, consider the rocky road World of Warcraft was on and has only questionably gotten away from in the past couple years. They began to focus almost exclusively on proxy measurements like number of active users per month or the percentage of players that engaged with a specific kind of content, rather than...y'know...sitting down and doing the work of designing content that was genuinely enjoyable in and of itself. And guess what that did? It ended up creating a system that players felt obligated to engage with, despite disliking or even outright hating it. Their "data-driven" design ended up creating a situation that players did, in fact, engage with in record numbers, and which was driving players away. From what I've heard, the ship has been righted since...but players are leery that Blizzard has learned the wrong lessons and is now plowing ahead into a different kind of anti-player design, rather than truly buckling down and figuring things out.

Financial success is a proxy. Personally, I think it is a significantly over-valued proxy. Doesn't mean it should be ignored (which I literally already stated, albeit in a different post). Just means that we absolutely must not pretend that sales = quality, nor that sales mean every player is blissed-out ecstatic about every single thing. Which, yes, is an argument people make on this board all the time, that because 5e sold well that must mean players are extremely happy with everything in it. (This, of course, conveniently ignores all the data from WotC itself showing that there was significant customer dissatisfaction with several parts of 5e that 5.5e attempted to address.)
Fair enough. I can follow this argument / chain of logic better. Did feel like I was missing something :)
But yes, the new superman is a good example that people dont always know what they want until see it, and so surveys etc can lead to wrong direction.
I agree that sales doesn't equate to quality, but at same time well designed doesn't necessarily mean it will be popular either, always a juggle for people putting out a product. For example, I would happily argue that 4e was better designed than 5e, but despite that I much prefer to play 5e than 4e.
 

I mean, yes, I absolutely believe that. I'm also 100% certain you won't listen to any argument I have with regard to that, so I'm not going to bother wasting your time and mine listing things I know you won't listen to.


I personally think they should have made several different decisions. I see no point in discussing them in detail with you...

I'm done. ...

We're done here.

Mod Note:

For whatever reason, you seem to having some trouble with making this stick. You keep saying you are going to disengage, but then you reply again.

How about we end this. If you cannot disengage, we can disengage you. You're done in this discussion.
 

Yes, a sufficiently large mob of CR 0 monsters/NPCs with the appropriate weapons, setup and opportunity can be a threat to high CR monsters or higher level characters for that matter. That was a conscious design choice.

But what does that have to do with minions?
I think the idea is that commoners are equal to minions, which of course they aren't. A commoner has 1d8 hit points whether he's fighting another commoner or a god. That is very much different from a minion ogre of a higher CR than the ogre with 111 hit points being killed by a single commoner with a rock 5% of the time.

Ogres with 1 hit point vs. 111 hit points depending on minion status is very different than a commoner that has a consistent 1d8 hit points no matter what.
 

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