D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

Let me get this straight
  • 150 peasants (why not 1,000? 10,000?)
  • armed with slings at the ready
  • all have clear shots at the dragon because it's an open field with no cover
  • in formation so as to not be taken out by a breath weapon
  • ready to attack the moment the dragon appears
  • the dragon presumably then flies within 30 feet of all of them (the short range for a sling)

Is not having the odds heavily stacked against them? Wowzers.

What exactly are you trying to prove? That you can create a hypothetical scenario for suicidal dragons?
What kind of cover do you expect to have while flying? If slings bother you, how about light crossbows. Not exactly a stretch that a town could have a militia of 100 light crossbowmen or archers. "In formation" means, hey guys spread out a bit so it can't breathe on all of you at once. Not exactly Navy Seals here.

Any town of 1000 people or more could easily field this. Not city. Not huge settlement. Any town. This would be the minimum militia I would assume for a town that size. An Adult Green Dragon has a 19 AC. That means that our commoners are hitting on a 17 or better. TWENTY PERCENT per round. With a quarter of those being crits. So, 25d6 damage/round. It's only got 207 HP. That means an adult green dragon dies in about 4 rounds against COMMONERS. Not even soldiers or guards.

This is why I talk about D&D being such an incredibly poor simulation. Dragons are supposed to be these terrifying engines of destruction. Yet, against the weakest units a town could muster, a dragon dies. The mechanics just don't match the narrative.
 

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Big ol' dragon in 1e had 88 hit points and an AC somewhere in the negatives (can't be bothered to look it up right now). Those peasants needed a natural 20 to hit.
A bit cherry picking don't you think? That's the absolute biggest dragon in the game.

An Ancient Black dragon is the end boss in a 4th level AD&D module - the first Dragonlance module. And the party absolutely obliterates it even with the magical item help.
 

I think the idea is that commoners are equal to minions, which of course they aren't. A commoner has 1d8 hit points whether he's fighting another commoner or a god. That is very much different from a minion ogre of a higher CR than the ogre with 111 hit points being killed by a single commoner with a rock 5% of the time.

Ogres with 1 hit point vs. 111 hit points depending on minion status is very different than a commoner that has a consistent 1d8 hit points no matter what.
But, that's the point. While the mechanics might be different, it plays out exactly the same.
 

Aren’t both daggerbeart and the cosimere (so) rpg tackle those?
Daggerheart like 4ed has seperate minion monster types. At least in the SRD I could find no traces of transition between those for a given monster. I have not bought the game proper so is that handled in the books?

I have not looked into the cosmere RPG. So if they actually have tried to tackle this? In that case my interest for getting it rises substantially.
 

Peasants with longbows can hit the dragon if it can hit them. There's a number and like @EzekielRaiden I forget what it is, but if you have that many or more commoners with longbows, even an ancient dragon will die or be forced to flee. That number is well below the number you would find in a city, and perhaps even a large town.

5e should have used immunity to non-magical weapons more.

If you set up hypothetical situations and have suicidal dragons it doesn't really prove anything. Focused fire from enough enemies is effective but not really a design concern.

Maybe in a bit I'll write up what I think a dragon would do.
 

Where do you think people live???

Villages are going to be next to fields. It's where their animals graze.

For God's sake, your "wowzers" at something that is so utterly mundane it is NEARLY UNIVERSAL is astounding.

We're done here.
Right. So the 150 peasants (which used to be 50) are all out in a field waiting for the dragon. Why on earth would the dragon fly into position to be targeted by all of them?

I don't disagree with the math of your hypothetical, I don't see why it matters.
 

What kind of cover do you expect to have while flying? If slings bother you, how about light crossbows. Not exactly a stretch that a town could have a militia of 100 light crossbowmen or archers. "In formation" means, hey guys spread out a bit so it can't breathe on all of you at once. Not exactly Navy Seals here.

Any town of 1000 people or more could easily field this. Not city. Not huge settlement. Any town. This would be the minimum militia I would assume for a town that size. An Adult Green Dragon has a 19 AC. That means that our commoners are hitting on a 17 or better. TWENTY PERCENT per round. With a quarter of those being crits. So, 25d6 damage/round. It's only got 207 HP. That means an adult green dragon dies in about 4 rounds against COMMONERS. Not even soldiers or guards.

This is why I talk about D&D being such an incredibly poor simulation. Dragons are supposed to be these terrifying engines of destruction. Yet, against the weakest units a town could muster, a dragon dies. The mechanics just don't match the narrative.
I'm wondering where morale rolls show up. The plots of a lot of westerns and gangster movies would be a lot different if the commoners would risk the death of some of them in order to save the rest.
 

Hypothetical: 1 Dragon vs 100 peasants (commoners)

First, the idea that dragons would not be unstoppable killing machines for NPCs was a design choice. I remember an article long ago talking about this, that cities should be able to defend themselves. If the cities couldn't dragons would rule the world which for most campaigns they do not.

But lets say you had a village threatened by a dragon. Present <whatever dragons want> or you die. So the villagers wait outside the village in a field slings at the ready and wait for the dragon. What happens next?

I'll use an adult red dragon because in 5e they don't have their fear aura. They do have an AC of 19, 256 HP. They also have above average human intelligence (16) and wisdom (13). In addition to their 30 foot cone breath they can also cast fireball once a day (range 120 feet) and scorching ray once per turn as a legendary action (range 120 feet).

In the other corner we have peasants +2 to attack, no damage bonus using slings (range 30/120), damage 1d4. They only have a 10% chance to hit, half of those hits if the attack is done within 30 feet so 2.5 damage for a regular hit, 5 for a crit, average for 3.25 damage on average per peasant with crits. It's .25 if the dragon has cover (see below). Long range is a bit iffy because they'll have disadvantage and I'm not sure how to calculate that so I'm just going to cut that down to 1.6 per peasant. I'll call it .05 if the dragon has cover and it's long distance (again, not sure how to calculate that).

Assuming completely empty field, no cover, all peasants 5 feet apart in a 10x10 grid. To benefit the commoners I'll assume they see the dragon coming and win initiative. I'm also going to do this as much as possible by strict rules interpretation, for example I'm not sure the back rows would even be able to hit the dragon if the dragon is on the ground simply because of all the people in the way.

Options
#1) Suicidal dragon
Continuously fly over the enemy giving them clear shots every single round.

Round 1:
Commoners: Because the dragon is cooperating with the commoners and always within 30 feet we get 325 damage. Yep, this is one suicidal dragon. There are old dragons, there are bold dragons, there are no old, bold dragons.

#2) Stupid dragon
Fly straight at the peasant formation, land and breath fire at the edge.

Round 1:
Commoners: those within 30 feet do 3.25 damage each so for simplicity I'll say the first 5 rows are within 30 feet and those in reach of the dragon are attacking with clubs which also do 1d4 damage. Problem is, only the front row has a clear shot, the dragon has partial cover after that from the people in front of them. So we have 10x3.25 + 40x0.1 = 36 damage the first round.
Dragon: The dragon breaths fire taking out 38 peasants.

Round 2:
Commoners: Peasants rush up, some of them pulling clubs to attack. They also change formation a bit but these are not trained soldirs. For simplicity I'll say everyone can now hit, but still only have 10 that can attack without cover. So 10 front row and 52 attacking dragon with cover for 10x3.25 + 52x0.1 = 37.7 rounded up to 38. Dragon is now down to 174 HP.
Dragon: fireball takes out 40 more peasants, they're now down to 22 commoners.

Round 3:
Do we really care? There's no way the commoners can win.

#3) Why the heck would the dragon attack them?
The dragon ignores the formation, goes and burns down half their village because all the commoners are in a field not protecting their village. Better pay up or the rest burns.

#4) Attack at night
If these are humans, just wait for cover of darkness. The dragon has 120 foot darkvision, just fly around blasting breath weapon. If these are any other race and have 60 foot darkvision, it's a little trickier but unless the dragon is suicidal they still win. They could always just use their scorching ray from just outside the NPC's visual range. It's going to take a while but eventually the commoners will lose.

#5) Tactical dragon
Fly overhead out of the reach of the weapons and drop stuff on the peasants. They're huge with a 27 strength they an carry 1,620 pounds before they become encumbered. Pick up trees, set them on fire, drop on defenders. One of my favorite tactics for massed troops.

I'm sure there are other options. I also think this is a highly unlikely scenario that the commoners would know the dragon is coming, be prepared and standing out in an open field. Even then if you actually work the scenario out and follow the rules of the game, I don't see how the peasants win unless the dragon is suicidal or there are other circumstances giving the peasants significant advantage. Even if you assume something like England during the era all able bodied men were required to train in the longbow, it's only the suicidal dragon that is truly threatened.

So no, I don't think 100 commoners will kill a dragon unless the dragon is suicidal or the game is rigged against them.
 

What kind of cover do you expect to have while flying? If slings bother you, how about light crossbows. Not exactly a stretch that a town could have a militia of 100 light crossbowmen or archers. "In formation" means, hey guys spread out a bit so it can't breathe on all of you at once. Not exactly Navy Seals here.

Any town of 1000 people or more could easily field this. Not city. Not huge settlement. Any town. This would be the minimum militia I would assume for a town that size. An Adult Green Dragon has a 19 AC. That means that our commoners are hitting on a 17 or better. TWENTY PERCENT per round. With a quarter of those being crits. So, 25d6 damage/round. It's only got 207 HP. That means an adult green dragon dies in about 4 rounds against COMMONERS. Not even soldiers or guards.

This is why I talk about D&D being such an incredibly poor simulation. Dragons are supposed to be these terrifying engines of destruction. Yet, against the weakest units a town could muster, a dragon dies. The mechanics just don't match the narrative.

It depends on what you're trying to simulate. Want dragons that can be challenged by half a dozen heroes but not by a thousand archers and (see above) a suicidal dragon? That would require a different to the game. Doesn't make D&D less of a sim, it just doesn't meet your personal criteria.

Also easy enough to fix wit a house rule if it's what you want.
 

An Adult Green Dragon has a 19 AC. That means that our commoners are hitting on a 17 or better.

If they are commoners they would not be proficient with crossbows and would need a 19 to hit

Dragons are supposed to be these terrifying engines of destruction. Yet, against the weakest units a town could muster, a dragon dies.

I am not sure they are supposed to be terrifying any more. They took away their fear ability in the 2024 rules and if they still had that this would be a much easier fight for them.
 
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